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Back to reality on the ground just for a split second here, it occurred to me - just guessing now - that perhaps the Russians have already extracted - or are in the process of extracting - from eastern Ukrainian military industrial facilities whatever movable materials and personnel they consider strategic and will retool and re-staff on Russian territory (humanitarian corridor), while Ukrainian/European gas supply renegotiations reach an advanced stage and the China deal sets in, though maintaining the possibility if necessary of more indirect intervention via the separatists who, at the moment, seem to be taking a shellacking.
Otherwise it seems hard to understand why the Russians wouldn't try to help defend them with heavier weapons, matching western support for the Ukrainian armed forces who all of a sudden seem to have become semi-sophisticated and aggressive after several visits from high level western politicians and military advisors.
Any thoughts?
My thoughts are Russia does not care as much as everyone thinks they do. Russia secured what it believes is a vital national security asset, the equivalent of the US stopping the Soviets from putting missiles in Cuba.
Russia knows that Ukraine will remain turbulent, and Kiev's actions are not helping stability at all, in fact the opposite. A gov does not make peace with the population by randomly firing on civilian targets as Kiev is doing in the east. While Maiden protesters were fired upon, the protesters were at least active participants, while numerous people in the east are not active participants but still being fired upon; this will create even more hostility towards Kiev.
Thing is, there are millions of people in the east, the equivalent of the three Baltic countries put together, so we are not talking some small group of people or anything.
Kiev needs to stop all attacks, retreat its army, and set up negotiations; the mere fact Kiev will try to negotiate will put pressure on the separatists to do the same, because the population will put pressure on the separatists to do so. But while Kiev is lobbing artillery randomly into east Ukraine, the population gets more and more behind the separatists, and that is not even including the fact the person they voted for got ousted.
Russia does not need Ukrainian industry, they have enough money to purchase it outright if they wanted to.
I'm waiting for western media to report on that car bomb that rocked a nice tree lined street (which was posted here on the thread also a few pages up). That was a huge blast. But no further info.
Antiterrorist operation? No, it's terrorist operation.
Ukrainian fighter attacked Lugansk.
You really do swallow all propaganda without any doubt, do you? If Putin says on Rossija24 that you should jump off a cliff, you probably would do it.
That was a terrorist attack with explosives. Dear friend, A WWI plane and a couple of bombs would make more damage. Fighter plane my ass. There's a lot of footage in youtube about ground attack planes doing their "thing" in Chechnya and Georgia. Explore that a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo
This thread that be reduced to this:
Pro-Russian: "You're a fascist"!
Pro-Ukrainian: "No, you are!"
More like,
Norwegian: Invading other countries is not cool.
Pro-Russian: But America! Kosovo!
Norwegian: I don't support that and I'm Norwegian!
Pro-Russian: Provocateur! Referendum! EU scum!
Norwegian: I'm not in the EU, and I have nothing...
Pro-Russian: FASCIST! Nazi Germany! WWII! We liberated you!
Norwegian: But that doesn't justify...
Pro-Russian: BANDERA! KIEV JUNTA! NAPOLEON!
Norwegian: It's really hard to have a discussion with you when you're not even liste...
Pro-Russian: CALVINIST PIG! AAAARGHHH! WANT TO HAVE A BLOODY NOSE??!?!?!
Norwegian: K thx bye. No wonder nobody have sympathy for the Russians.
There is a big problem with expecting Kiev to negotiate with anyone.
Lets do the worksheet on this:
People have declared a former part of Ukraine to now be part of Russia
More people want to do the same with other areas
Kiev did not agree to give away parts of Ukraine
They should not have to now negotiate with anyone, especially with yet more people who want to chip away even more of the Ukraine and who take Kiev's lack of action as an opportunity to grab.
Kiev is totally justified in aggressive action against those who want to split up the country or areas that want to break away. The aggressive separatist types should not plan on using the general population as shields and then shed crocodile tears when some shields are killed during military action.
It isn't much different than the American civil war in the 1860's. President Lincoln also did not feel that he should just negotiate and take no military action when the southern states seceded, some using the reason that they had been mistreated by their northern neighbors.
Unfortunately it seems that Kiev's effective use of it's military forces leaves much to be desired, and it seems to not have any real organized or innovative plan. But Kiev does have the right to hang on to the parts of Ukraine they still have and to try to get back those they don't.
Last edited by CountryCarr; 06-03-2014 at 07:15 PM..
And today the Ukrainian Insurgent Army is very popular among Ukrainians. This is very annoying people from the east of Ukraine. I wonder what position will the new president of Ukraine Poroshenko.
The Ukrainian Insurgent Army lead by Stepan Bandera carried out one the most horrendous act of genocide in history and it didn't happen in Poland. It happened at Babi Yar close to Kiev in Ukraine in 1941. Genocide at this level and methods used made even the hardenest German SS uncomfortable.
Last edited by Northwindsforever; 06-03-2014 at 07:14 PM..
Reason: year added
They should not have to now negotiate with anyone, especially with yet more people who want to chip away even more of the Ukraine and who take Kiev's lack of action as an opportunity to grab.
Yea, I mean why negotiate with millions of people? Especially after ousting a president that the majority of them voted for? The best way to get along with millions of your own population of course is to take military action against them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryCarr
Kiev is totally justified in aggressive action against those who want to split up the country or areas that want to break away. The aggressive separatist types should not plan on using the general population as shields and then shed crocodile tears when some shields are killed during military action.
The separatists do not use the general population as shields as a matter of tactic, and not nearly to the extent Kiev lobs artillery fire randomly into civilian areas; this is a wide known fact, so much so you notice even the West and US are distancing themselves a lot from commenting on the conflict right now. There is zero excuse for many of those attacks on civilian areas, you have to be obtuse and disconnected from reality if you think this is not happening (it is only plastered everywhere) and that it is justified.
You really have to be disconnected from reality if you think this is a great way for Kiev to bring the country together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryCarr
It isn't much different than the American civil war in the 1860's. President Lincoln also did not feel that he should just negotiate and take no military action when the southern states succeeded, some using the reason that they had been mistreated by their northern neighbors.
Actually, it is very different than the US Civil War, not even close to be the same scenario. They have different causes, different histories, people, etc. The US Civil War did not start by a group overthrowing an elected president. Let us say they are the same, you really think the solution is hundreds of thousands of deaths? Are you psychotic or something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryCarr
Unfortunately it seems that Kiev's effective use of it's military forces leaves much to be desired, and it seems to not have any real organized or innovative plan. But Kiev does have the right to hang on to the parts of Ukraine they still have and to try to get back those they don't.
Because Ukraine is trying to use the military against their own people, it sometimes does not work out well, sometimes it does. Often the military is not fond of firing on their own people, many of which could be possible relatives and acquaintances. The mobilization has failed and Kiev cannot even take a small town, let alone make moves on the separatists' strongholds.
This is why it is essential negotiations take place. As I stated previously, Kiev entering negotiations will put pressure on the separatists to do so. It is widely know the discord between the rich, economic healthy east, and the poor, non-industrialized west. This friction has had a lid on it and now it has erupted with the ousting of the east backed president. West Ukraine could never field a candidate that could win, the Orange revolt was a failure, failed so bad Yanukovich was voted back in.
A person has to be really disconnected from reality to think there is not going to be a negative reaction to overthrowing a popularly elected president. Then installing a non-elected president in which one of the first things they do is address a language issue, then turn around to sign deals that impact everyone in Ukraine, doing this while not elected.
"...then the militants changed positions and began to shoot from inside nearby buildings where local people live, Slobodyan said, adding that the attackers weren't letting residents out of their homes."
As I've already said - whatever official Ukrainian representatives are saying can't be trusted. And honestly - I haven't seen so much of blatant American propaganda that CNN is spreading around, knowing all full well by now that official Ukrainian sources can't be trusted. They ( Kiev government that is) makes an impression of highly unqualified individuals in both respects - be that military or civil. Yet they are trying very hard to please their "new masters" and prove them that they are "worthy" of their trust and attention, and that's how the image of "foreign occupational forces, hiding behind the backs of the "locals" in Eastern Ukraine" is disseminated in American media.
No doubt Russians are coming through porous Ukrainian borders to help the fighters, but that doesn't mean that there are no locals among them. There are plenty of Eastern Ukrainians ( both Ukrainians and Russians alike,) among the fighters, so to me the statement of Slobodyan that they were "hiding behind the civilian population, not allowing them to get out of their houses," raised a false flag right away.
So I've quoted his words on the CNN on the rebel's site and people there couldn't even understand first what I was talking about. After a lot of "thumbs down" and "Americans are liers" in my direction, they've finally figured out that I was looking for a proof of Slobodyan's ( and CNN's) lies.
So they've posted this video from Russian news for me, where the anchor man, talking to a correspondent from Lugansk is CLEARLY SAYING THAT CIVILIANS WERE WARNED TO STAY INSIDE IN ORDER TO NOT TO BE HIT BY THE STRAY BULLETS, because of the military actions in their neighborhood, and as soon as some of them could, they've left the high-rises and were escorted by the fighters out of the military zone.
And that's precisely what you see from 3.40 to 3.56.
So that's what really took place, but the lies about East Ukrainian fighters "using general population as shields" successfully invented by Kiev's representative and spread by CNN are already circulating around.
Just look at Country Carr's post for example.
Back to reality on the ground just for a split second here, it occurred to me - just guessing now - that perhaps the Russians have already extracted - or are in the process of extracting - from eastern Ukrainian military industrial facilities whatever movable materials and personnel they consider strategic and will retool and re-staff on Russian territory (humanitarian corridor), while Ukrainian/European gas supply renegotiations reach an advanced stage and the China deal sets in, though maintaining the possibility if necessary of more indirect intervention via the separatists who, at the moment, seem to be taking a shellacking.
Otherwise it seems hard to understand why the Russians wouldn't try to help defend them with heavier weapons, matching western support for the Ukrainian armed forces who all of a sudden seem to have become semi-sophisticated and aggressive after several visits from high level western politicians and military advisors.
Any thoughts?
Bale, I'll be very cautious here, but I think that Putin and Co are not putting the army on the ground right now, because in the long(er) term the situation with Ukraine is playing in their hands; the time and circumstances are on their side, not the West's. Although their hands are tied somewhat at this point by their dependence on Western finances/banking system, ( courtesy of the "new Russians" of the nineties and the West of course,) it won't slow them down for long. Even when Russia was weak and could only watch the events in Serbia/Kosovo, sure enough the echo of these events came later during Georgia/Ossetia war.
So while Putin is making his deals with China, people who surround him make their own calculations regarding Ukraine as well. These calculations will come back and materialize sooner or later, as in case with Georgia. The whole situation in Ukraine woke up a lot of Russian nationalism, so even if Putin ( and part of his inner circle) would like to remain more pragmatic and care more about "Western investments" than the fate of Ukraine, the nationalists in his inner circle won't leave this issue alone.
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There's a lot of footage in youtube about ground attack planes doing their "thing" in Chechnya and Georgia. Explore that a bit.
