The future of Ukraine (Czechs, crime, 2014, country)

[Maksim_Frolov]

Originally Posted by musiqum

You are saying something crap.
I don't want to be an european at all, and Russia want to stay in its own home.
Russia is self-sufficient and has its own great values.

It does not change anything.

[LINative]

Originally Posted by musiqum

You are saying something crap.
I don't want to be an european at all, and Russia want to stay in its own home.
Russia is self-sufficient and has its own great values.

The World would like Russia to stay in its own home too.

[musiqum]

Originally Posted by viribusunitis

Would be nice, if you at least consider what I actually wrote.

I am sorry if I missed something. Can you please express your main idea again, shortly?

[travric]

And someone wants to take an advantage from this situation.

Sure..there are probably deep agendas somewhere. What I really would like to see is Vlad pouring a vodka with the Ukrainians rather than saber-rattling around a port. An important one I'll say but they've had this for awhile. Nothing new on access to the area. I try hard to understand him but how can it be in his interest to aggravate the people who are tied to his country linguistically and culturally?

Putin looks like the father who is angry that his child is thinking differently on the world. Usually, parents to get them of in life, put the kids in a row boat in the water after giving them some values and shoves them off. But what I see him doing is scuttling the boat and yelling 'you aren't going anywhere son!' That's papa as autocrat.....hhmmmmm.... maybe 'too many cooks spoiling the broth' here? If the 'extremists' get the upper hand here on both sides we will be seeing very bad, very bad borscht...;-).....

[musiqum]

Originally Posted by LINative

The World would like Russia to stay in its own home too.

Relax.. Russia is not pretending to someone else's home.

[travric]

Yikes the Dow is down 180+ points! Perhaps this could be the point of the Crimean/Ukraine ruckus????. If we recall the Wall Street financial panic a few years looked like it was going to be the death knell of Western capitalism. Vlad could be crazy as a fox here!

[movingwiththewind]

Originally Posted by LINative

The World would like Russia to stay in its own home too.

The problem is, they still think Ukraine IS their home.

[gsgsgs]

Originally Posted by musiqum

I am not a lawyer and I guess you too.
But you forgot something... There is a lot of russians in Ukraine who expose to ther life' danger. And they asked for help. And Russians troops are helping to get the order restored.
The US troops are doing this every time around the world. But it seems to me you won't say something about this.

you're wrong again. I was strongly opposed to the Iraq invasion in 2002,2003
and the WMD lie - Bush's "new world order"
the last time that I was involved in bigger political debates in internet

---edit--- well, I almost forgot the financial crisis -----------

[gsgsgs]

[ I think it's too early for all that sanctions talk. Give Russia the chance to
explain how they think it should continue.
There is not so much difference in the official statements from all
the governments concerning that.
Politically stable Ukraine, elections, new government,
no violence. ]

[viribusunitis]

Originally Posted by musiqum

I am sorry if I missed something. Can you please express your main idea again, shortly?

I'm kinda tired of repeating myself over and over again... We were discussing whether it's legal to overthrow a government, the legitimacy of Yanukovych's rule and if it's legal that said overthrown government asks a third party for help in a civil war.

To answer those questions it's essential to discuss:

- the differences between a coup d'etat led by the military and one where the military is not involved (often called "democratic coups"
- the definition of recognized governments and the differences between Effective Control Doctrine, the Estrada Doctrine and Tobar Doctrine
- the use of force in the context of international law

I argued, that according to the internationally recognized Effective Control Doctrine the person in charge is the one that:

- possess effective control over the territory: Yanukovych's government certainly doesn't control any part of the Ukraine anymore. Western Ukraine is controlled by the new government, Eastern Ukraine is controlled by pro-Russian Ukrainians and the Crimean Peninsula is controlled by Russian forces/the president of the Crimean region.
- does have the consent or acquiescence of the people: Western Ukraine does not want to be ruled by Yanukovych, Eastern Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula want to be part of Russia or independent.
- does exhibit the willingness to uphold the state’s obligations under international law

Which would mean that Yanukovych is not the person in charge anymore. So, I argued that it's not up to Yanukovych to ask Russia for military help.

Even when you'd apply the Tobar Doctrine, which is history by now, a government which has just overthrown another government would be recognized, if public elections would take place within a reasonable period of time. Something they want to do in March.

As you can see: I never said or implied that if the West (in the sense of the EU/the US) supports the new government, then Yanukovych’s regime is no longer the recognized government under customary international law.


TL;DR
Just look up "use of force in international law" and "effective control doctrine" on a Russian language search engine...