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You sound like you drank too much of the "democracy" Kool-aid. Look at Egypt, and Syria in slo-mo, and you will see that, while democracy, like communism, is a nice ideal to think about and to discuss, it's too complicated to implement properly. Often, those most idealistic are also the most easily manipulated and used. In the end, no democracy and no country!
Ukrainains youths may have the best of intentions, but now the movement is hijacked by nazis, and Putin has every intention to crush it.
"A chief rabbi in Ukraine, Yaakov Dov Bleich, has accused Russia of staging anti-Semitic "provocations" in Crimea in order to justify its invasion of Ukraine, the Jewish Telegraphic News Agency reports. "Things may be done by Russians dressing up as Ukrainian nationalists," he said, comparing it to the behaviour of the Nazis prior to the invasion of Austria in 1938."
With the advent of the net and instant international distribution of videos...we now have a quick view into situation that at one time were only reported by correspondence - usually with an agenda...NOW we can look for ourselves. All I saw after viewing a dozen smart phone videos of Syria....Libya and now the Ukraine....are all YOUNG people who are not fully formed politically....emotionally or mentally. They all remind me of mindless dupes who are unaware of the consequences of violent upheaval....Look at Syria...Youth are killing each other at an astonishing rate and BLOWING up their own infrastructure....Have they thought ahead of were they are going to live after all the dwellings are destroyed........NO!
Isn`t that the teachings of your glorious previous leaders of the Revolution - Lenin, Stalin?? Blowing up the infrastructure - violent upheaval - rising up to authorities??
And speaking of Central Ukraine, how are things along the Dnieper? Lately the activity discussed is usually of events in
the South and East. I only ask this at perhaps it may be premature but nevertheless I will throw it out.
My relatives live outside east of Dnepropetrovsk, so I guess a little left of central Ukraine. Other than the village rumors and hysteria, and the checkpoints along the major roads, everything seems normal. Does not seem a large impact to everyday life right now in that area, at least that was my impression. They have concerns over mobilization, a couple of male relatives are eligible for it; concerns seem to be more like "what about work", and the possibility of getting mixed up in an event they are really apathetic to.
Also, many Ukrainians (and Russians) are "mixed", as in they have Russian relatives as well, maybe even mom or dad is Russian (and vice versa in Russia as well, this is the case with my relatives). So it is not some absolute "we do not like you" situation with many people. So this kind of drags on the minds of more than a few people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
It's become evident to me that Vladimir Putin is mining this situation for all its worth. I'm getting the feeling that if there is just a glimmer of anything relating at all to 'Kievian' politics in the east or Soth right now well it won't stand a chance. The tinderbox is there and ready to blow up. from the looks of it I'd suggest perhaps Ukriane will eventually be 'partitioned' and perhaps the Dnieper will be the demarcation in the Ukraine. Fantasy? I don't know but the genie is out the bottle.
I am thinking the situation has been blown up a bit too much. While yes, Russian troops entering the area is an event, the area they entered should not have been that surprising given the overall circumstances. If it was into Ukraine proper, then yes, but Crimea? This area has always been a special case within Ukraine. Seems people were more than willing to exploit this issue, make a mountain and of a mole hill. Putin may have very well walked right into this and was exploited by the new gov.
If Russia would have not done anything, perhaps the new gov would have had a more difficult time unifying. Nothing like an external threat to promote unity. Ukraine should send Putin a thank you card.
I do not think anyone wants Ukraine partitioned, even Russia. I think Russia wants attention? Acknowledgement? Influence? The speed of this mobilization had to have drawn the attention of other world powers.
Then there is the unknown card; is there more to this than we know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
All in all, I'm afraid Russia's decision to intervene has split the country er....irrevocably. If the Ukrianians and Russians were fraternal 'brothers' the family unit now has been destroyed. And we know how 'families' can fight.
Well, I think when the new gov passed the language law issue, that was the large fracture. It is highly suspicious that the priority of a new gov right after a coup is to address a language issue (that was not even an issue); that has all the signs of a radical, anti-Russian ethnicity regime. So really, cannot blame ethnic Russians, and non-radical Ukrainians and other groups for being a little alerted to this fact, especially given the facts, rumors, and perceptions of the group that spearheaded the coup.
As for Russian intervention, I still think there is more to it than we know. It seems a bit too simplistic (and risky politically and economically) of a reason for Russian troops to pour in like that.
I think Ukrainians, Russians, and Belorussians should all get together and toss out all of these power mongers, every darn one of them. The Putins, the Tymenshenkos, the Oligarchs, the nationalists, all of them. Every one of these groups/people are exploiting the common citizen for their own interests. (wow, starting to sound like Bolshevik talk!)
there is a strong belief that Russia’s action is violating international law.
I know President Putin seems to have a different
set of lawyers making a different set of interpretations
but I don’t think that’s fooling anybody.
a Court to decide ... or at least some independent experts
even if it's legal, it's still "tricky" and against the spirit of 1994BM
Isn`t that the teachings of your glorious previous leaders of the Revolution - Lenin, Stalin?? Blowing up the infrastructure - violent upheaval - rising up to authorities??
Didn`t the Russians themselves do this in 1917?
That is just revolutions in general; seldom are revolutions bloodless and lack destruction.
The only thing that makes revolutions destructive is the fact not everyone goes along with the revolutionaries, so the choice is either to fight, or to lose. Fighting is basically destructive.
Quite honestly, I am not all that concerned with a subject of "Russia bashing." To me it's not a point, what important for me was to understand what Eastern Ukrainians/Crimeans really think about the whole situation and whether they were/are willing to get along with those people in Kiev who decided to side with European Union. After everything I saw on Youtube and ( particularly) read on the internet, my impression is no, they genuinely want to stick with Russia and they are set in their own ways.
From what I see and read online, not all Russian speaking Ukrainians want to stick with Russia and many Russian speaking Ukrainians condemn and oppose the Russian intervention. It looks like even in the Eastern parts of Ukraine, people are divided.
In general, it seems to me, that the majority of Ukrainians support the idea of closer ties with the EU.
I understand that we may look at the same things differently, look at different things and use different sources of information. Still, it would seem very strange to me if every Russian speaking Ukrainian living somewhere in the Eastern part of Ukraine and speaking Russian as their first language would automatically side with Russia just by the virtue of being an enthic Russian.
I am sure BBC and CNN are the most reliable and impartial opinions on matters like this
Botticelli, there are many sources of information. This is just one of the sources. I try to use various sources.
This time, I decided to use BBC. Do I feel ashamed? You bet, I don't.
Decide for yourself what sources of information to use. You can also post your findings here from any source you choose, to the advantage of all forum members.
Good luck
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 03-04-2014 at 12:47 PM..
Botticelli, there are many sources of information. This is just one of the sources. I try to use various sources.
This time, I decided to use BBC. Do I feel ashamed? You bet, I don't.
Decide for yourself what sources of information to use. You can also post your findings here from any source you choose, to the advantage of all forum members.
Good luck
You mean English language sources.
And how many English language countries are not puppet states, oh, sorry, "allies" of the US?
You previous post about "you think majority of Ukraine people support closer tie with Europe and don't like Russia intervention" is definitely completely unbiased and NOT from a pro-America westerner's point of view too.
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