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[quote=DKM;58889684]So to prevent democracy, its okay for the state to chase down protesters, surround them and beat them with sticks until they pass out. Remind us why "overwhelming majority of Ukrainians" are supposedly in favor of police doing that./quote]
They ( I am talking now strictly about the comments left by Ukrainians,) justify it only because at certain point in time they saw similar "handwriting" in Minsk, as during the Ukrainian Maidan. ( From 13:47 to 13:50 here.)
And they say that IF Yanukovich ( and Ukrainian police) would have had same brutal force as Lukashenko in Minsk, none of the coup d'etat would have taken place in Kiev as well.
But I personally do not necessarily agree with that, since I see few other factors involved, that make difference.)
At that, "Strana UA" is only giving general observation, noting police brutality in Belorussia ( they say their basically personal hatred was noticeable,) but she does point at those episodes, when the "protesters" were acting in the same militant manner as the "protesters" on Ukrainian Maidan.
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What I recall was Ukrainians fought back until they won. But it was a different situation in 2014... Then it was a large number of people supporting one side vs. another.
There was no "one side supporting the other" in Kiev.
But Americans were there, at that square, giving the direct moral support to the protest that they sponsored in the tune of the 5 billion dollars, and there were the militant squads of Ukrainian nationalists that were trained thanks to that money. And there were big numbers of them, vs outnumbered police.
And those factors made a lot of difference.
In Belorussia nationalism doesn't have any background; anyone supporting Hitler's collaborators would have been beaten up on a spot, because Belorussia had the biggest losses during the WWII (percentage wise,) and Belorussia was never divided ethnically, as Ukraine is.
Not to mention that the idiot orchestrating the whole protest while sitting somewhere in safe place in Poland, went to bed around 12 or so in the evening and basically said to those on the streets of Minsk "see you in the morning."
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Here its all the people against the government. No Lukashenko supporters to be seen and no opposition leaders exist.
Right.
See above.
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I still don't understand why he bothered to allow an election. Now we will have more deaths, one guy in Gomel was beat so badly the police won't release the body. I'm also seeing more videos of random people jumping in to help people getting beat by police escape.
My guess is that he still wants to look legitimate, ( while running business internationally,) and he knows that he still has sufficient support in his country.
Those who refuse to see it, can riot all they want - it's not changing anything.
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This is getting out of hand quick when violence is beginning to be met with counter violence. And I'm seeing this in Brest, Grodno, Lida, Gomel etc etc. If it comes to armed conflict I will remember the protesters started unarmed and peaceful here, but Russian media will paint them as armed coup mongers or something because the new people in charge won't be supporting a Russian colony that is for sure.
Please spare me all your crocodile tears - I remember what Ukrainian nazi were doing to anyone in the Eastern part of the country, that were not accepting coup d'etat in Kiev ( that they didn't ask for, since they LEGITIMATELY voted in the president that they chose by democratic process.)
The Ukrainian nazi occupation force that was sent from Kiev was SHOOTING THEM on a spot - the unarmed people, yes.
A few people want their visa free travel to the EU, lol, jsut like that was what Maiden was about, people wanted to leave Ukraine, they could not care less about the place.
A lot of inconsistencies and inaccuracies in those posts. In Ukraine in 2014, protesters had Kyiv’s mayor on their side and set up an HQ in the municipality. A national TV station backed protests. So did many regional governments. Opposition had major presence in parliament, which later ousted Yanukovych. None of this exists in Belarus.
You keep dragging the maidan back into this but there aren't many similarities at all. Even the presence of the protesters aren't the same here. Now its spontaneous protests occurring all over Belarus, although it seems to be nearly absent from the eastern side (there is a similarity). In Minsk itself, many demonstrations pop up in different districts, then the police come and chase down who they can and each time beat them up for all to see.
They even paraded captured clearly injured teenagers on state TV to make them denounce their activities. Unless Belarusians are a totally depraved people this cant go over too well. Also some videos emerging of captives in prison yards getting beaten with their hands tied behind their backs. This is going to change western official responses pretty soon. It's one thing to control protesting but to severely injure and terrorize the population in order to force acceptance of a rigged election isn't going to sit well. This may be Putin's gain as Batya will lose all goodwill he recently gained to the west. The EU reacts slowly but it will.
A lot of inconsistencies and inaccuracies in those posts. In Ukraine in 2014, protesters had Kyiv’s mayor on their side and set up an HQ in the municipality. A national TV station backed protests. So did many regional governments. Opposition had major presence in parliament, which later ousted Yanukovych.
So WHO out of these people you mention were out on the streets of Kiev, fighting the Nazi with their bare hands?
"A national TV station?" Kiev's mayor personally?
No one was out there.
No one but outnumbered "Berkut" ( police) that was fired upon, smashed with metal chains and set on fire by Molotov's cocktails.
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None of this exists in Belarus.
You keep dragging the maidan back into this but there aren't many similarities at all. Even the presence of the protesters aren't the same here. Now its spontaneous protests occurring all over Belarus, although it seems to be nearly absent from the eastern side (there is a similarity). In Minsk itself, many demonstrations pop up in different districts, then the police come and chase down who they can and each time beat them up for all to see.
I don't. Ukrainians do.
They are the ones that keep on referring to Minsk protest as the "White Maidan."
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They even paraded captured clearly injured teenagers on state TV to make them denounce their activities. Unless Belarusians are a totally depraved people this cant go over too well. Also some videos emerging of captives in prison yards getting beaten with their hands tied behind their backs. This is going to change western official responses pretty soon.
I already explained the role of the West in all this earlier, didn't I?
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It's one thing to control protesting but to severely injure and terrorize the populationin order to force acceptance of a rigged election isn't going to sit well. This may be Putin's gain as Batya will lose all goodwill he recently gained to the west. The EU reacts slowly but it will.
The government in Kiev tried to "control" the crowd without "terrorizing" back in 2014; remember how it all ended?
And by the way - those Maidan "fighters" in Kiev were rioting against the results of the presidential election that were not rigged at all.
(Kremlin thinks that if it only offers Lukashnko sufficient bribe, Belorussia's independence will be sold, to which Lukashenko is saying "Coffin doesn't have pockets. Independence and sovereignty are not for sale."
At that, from the sound of it, he DOES like the idea of integration, however not just with Russia, on Kremlin's conditions, but into Eurasian union, with well-defined rules for everyone and well-defined price on energy.)
So don't you point at Lukashenko as a source of a problem - Kremlin Inc is the source of problem as usual, with its thuggish approach.
Dear Erasure, that's just not necessary to make an innocent lamb out of Lukashenko and represent him as a victim of the evil Kremlin.
He's no better. He is the same as them, the berry of same field. Like him we have people call *хитрожопый*. He tried to make as much money as possible on the topic of integration with Russia. It first knocks out the maximum discounts and minimum export duties on oil, as to a fraternal people, allegedly for domestic consumption, and then drives this oil and gasoline from this oil to Europe at the market price, taking all the profits for itself and paying nothing to Russia, thereby shifting all the costs to oil companies from Russia. Russia has repeatedly pointed out to him that this is wrong, this is called deception, but he just waved it off. And Russia was eventually forced to cut off this tap and introduced the so-called "tax maneuver". And he immediately became indignant-Ah, what a bad Russia..Ah, they sell us oil dearly.. Ah, they do not want to support the fraternal people.. Ah, then we will turn away from you and turn to Europe...
Then on the topic of the sanctions war with Europe, he quickly figured out where to get a profit and began selling avocados, pineapples,shrimp and other seafood to Russia with stickers "Made in Belarus". And so you can continue for a long time..
So Lukashenko's goals are clear as day-to earn as much as possible at any cost. And all this talk about independence and sovereignty is pure populism. I believe that both countries would benefit from unification. If Belarus were to join the Union with Russia,nothing would change in economic terms for either Russia or Belarus. Only the status of Lukashenko would change. Now he is the President of the country, and if United, he would become at best the President's Representative in the Belarusian Federal district, and at worst, the Governor under Putin. Feel the difference? This for him, with his ambitions, is like death.
Dear Erasure, that's just not necessary to make an innocent lamb out of Lukashenko and represent him as a victim of the evil Kremlin.
He's no better. He is the same as them, the berry of same field. Like him we have people call *хитрожопый*. He tried to make as much money as possible on the topic of integration with Russia. It first knocks out the maximum discounts and minimum export duties on oil, as to a fraternal people, allegedly for domestic consumption, and then drives this oil and gasoline from this oil to Europe at the market price, taking all the profits for itself and paying nothing to Russia, thereby shifting all the costs to oil companies from Russia. Russia has repeatedly pointed out to him that this is wrong, this is called deception, but he just waved it off. And Russia was eventually forced to cut off this tap and introduced the so-called "tax maneuver". And he immediately became indignant-Ah, what a bad Russia..Ah, they sell us oil dearly.. Ah, they do not want to support the fraternal people.. Ah, then we will turn away from you and turn to Europe...
Then on the topic of the sanctions war with Europe, he quickly figured out where to get a profit and began selling avocados, pineapples,shrimp and other seafood to Russia with stickers "Made in Belarus". And so you can continue for a long time..
So Lukashenko's goals are clear as day-to earn as much as possible at any cost. And all this talk about independence and sovereignty is pure populism. I believe that both countries would benefit from unification.
I will skip the rest for the moment being, because ( from what I've read,) except for the export of European food stuff, banned by Russia as the result of sanctions ( introduced by Kremlin) I see no particular "cheating" on behalf of Belorussia, particularly that it lost part of its budget (transportation) because of these sanctions.
When it comes to oil price and reselling of the refined products by Belorussia - that's precisely where Kremlin is stepping on the throat of its "brotherly state," knowing how much these sales mean for Belorussian budget.
But as I've said - I'll skip this part for now, and will ask another question instead.
Do you think Belorussians want to integrate with Russia MORE than the way they are integrated now?
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If Belarus were to join the Union with Russia,nothing would change in economic terms for either Russia or Belarus. Only the status of Lukashenko would change. Now he is the President of the country, and if United, he would become at best the President's Representative in the Belarusian Federal district, and at worst, the Governor under Putin. Feel the difference? This for him, with his ambitions, is like death.
That's what YOU'd like to believe.
The reality however is different.
The kind of integration that Kremlin is pushing for, is clearly different than the current one.
And so it won't just change "Lukashenko's status," but it will change the economic situation within Belorussia as well.
As Lukashnko is pointing, his country will lose independence, and not just him personally as you'd like to think.
And THIS makes me go back to the initial question - do Belorussians want to lose this economic/political independence - the degree of which at least they enjoy today?
Do you think Belorussians want to integrate with Russia MORE than the way they are integrated now?
And THIS makes me go back to the initial question - do Belorussians want to lose this economic/political independence - the degree of which at least they enjoy today?
And if not, do you know why?
I can't speak for all Belarusians. But I spoke on this issue with at least 5-6 people and they were in favor of unification. I think the situation is 50/50.
But we a little deviated from the topic... The current protests in Belarus are not about integration, but about gross falsification of election results.
I can't speak for all Belarusians. But I spoke on this issue with at least 5-6 people and they were in favor of unification. I think the situation is 50/50.
But we a little deviated from the topic... The current protests in Belarus are not about integration, but about gross falsification of election results.
Yes and no, because that question of "integration" ( the kind that Kremlin is pushing for) and the current one is PART of the results of that vote.
And from everything I saw on-line ( Belorussians expressing their opinions,) and the numbers that I see in the polls, makes me believe that even if Lukashenko falsified the election results, the MAJORITY of people were still voting for HIM.
So the rest of hoopla, ( the cries for "democracy," the "live chain of protesting women" ( the whole 250 of them,) the usual calling for "extraordinal EU summits" on "violation of human rights in Belorussia" - all this hoopla is created only to push the aborted coup d'etat in Belorussia, in the same manner it has been pushed in Ukraine, after the fair and square election. The election that was won by the "wrong" candidate from the West's point of view.
What makes me think so?
Here are the poll's numbers from Deutche Welle from this year;
"74.12% of Belorussians want to live as "independent, but friendly with Russia country, with open borders, with no visas or customs."
And this is telling me right there, that the majority of Belorussians are happy with the way things are under Lukashenko for the time being, and that's the way they voted.
But if Kremlin will keep on pushing for what IT wants, then it will be already a different story, since only 12.8% of Belorussians want the same thing - i.e. unification with Russia.
The current protests in Belarus are not about integration, but about gross falsification of election results.
The biggest difference between the Belarus situation and the Ukrainian one 6.5 years ago.
The only question now is will the outcome be different as a result of more extreme state violence? There are more than 2 ways this plays out. Ukraine was a peaceful transfer of power compared to what Belarus appears to be heading towards... I find myself agreeing with Scrat.
Poor erasure is still stuck on the belief that people don't care for universal sufferage and national policy is the matter to be decided by unelected leadership.
And from everything I saw on-line ( Belorussians expressing their opinions,) and the numbers that I see in the polls, makes me believe that even if Lukashenko falsified the election results, the MAJORITY of people were still voting for HIM.
This is nonsense. There were no free polls in this election. Some unofficial were taken that show he's clearly lost support. The whole of Minsk is honking their horns all day now. Random crowds of people attacked some cops who were dragging a guy away and then they showered them with flowers and the police left. There is no evidence whatsoever that any majority of people support this man.
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Originally Posted by erasure
And this is telling me right there, that the majority of Belorussians are happy with the way things are under Lukashenko for the time being, and that's the way they voted.
But if Kremlin will keep on pushing for what IT wants, then it will be already a different story, since only 12.8% of Belorussians want the same thing - i.e. unification with Russia.
Now WHY it is the way it is, is a good question.
You got it backwards, they are not at all happy with this guy. Even less so when they see what contempt he has for the nation's youth. To parade captured teenagers clearly beaten up by cops on TV to scare the rest into submission... Beating people in detention centers... this in inhuman. If Belarusians are the same kind of people as Russians and Ukrainians they aren't going to take this lying down.
Nobody cares right now about unification with Russia. They want to change their country from having a violent a-hole in charge. And that is the similarity I'm starting to see with the Maidan.
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Like him we have people call *хитрожопый*. 
He tried to make as much money as possible on the topic of integration with Russia. It first knocks out the maximum discounts and minimum export duties on oil, as to a fraternal people, allegedly for domestic consumption, and then drives this oil and gasoline from this oil to Europe at the market price, taking all the profits for itself and paying nothing to Russia, thereby shifting all the costs to oil companies from Russia. Russia has repeatedly pointed out to him that this is wrong, this is called deception, but he just waved it off. And Russia was eventually forced to cut off this tap and introduced the so-called "tax maneuver". And he immediately became indignant-Ah, what a bad Russia..Ah, they sell us oil dearly.. Ah, they do not want to support the fraternal people.. Ah, then we will turn away from you and turn to Europe...
And so you can continue for a long time..