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Oh I will, you can be assured of that! I've made it my mission in life to fight Progressivism wherever it rears it's ugly head. I'm guessing that you're probably doing the same.
Yes, you bet. Liberalism / Progressivism is the mortal enemy of a civil society. When I say mortal, I actually do mean literally. Look at European societies who are literally dying.
NYS politicians are hara-kiri (voluntary dismemberment) politicians. We can't stand-by and let them take us with them.
California has taken the lion-share of Southern Border illegals. But people tend to go where their families and relatives are settled. So they attract each-other, provide initial shelter, job opportunities, show them the "ropes", how to get benefits / freebies.
Welfare state is a huge draw, understandably. Each illegal immigrant family represent a $ 14k deficit. It means they take $ 14k more in freebies than they pay in taxes.
Not sure about ID, WY and other Mountain States, but I know that population increase in Utah is attributed mostly to high birth rates of citizens.
Not sure, that's why I didn't respond.
Language although an important pillar is not enough.
In order to be a "melting pot" ("pluralistic" to me has a politican connotation, while "melting pot" has a cultural, civil society connotation), in order for these new members to assimilate in our civil society they need to change their mindset, emancipate, embrace Americanism and yes, leave behind many of the home-country values.
They need leave behind racism, discrimination based on national origin, skin color, sex or sexual orientation, intolerance, group-think, political-correctness, love of Govt, idolatry of a king or religious figure -- if you cling to these values, stay in the hell-hole you are.
Members of uncivil societies need to emancipate first. The come from tyrannical regimes. They need to understand that Tyranny is unacceptable here. Class does not determine your fate in life. Constitution, rule-of-law, limited Govt, civil liberties, civil society with self-governance, personal responsibility, initiative, charity, self-reliance, local control, decentralized power, becoming a productive member, not a "taker" -- all these American values they need to learn and live-by.
Schools do a bad job, because Progressives run the schools, and they don't want these American values. Welfare has destroyed the work component. Work is the source of all good things. We lose this, we've lost most.
This sounds close to some of my views. I also want to throw in that it's not our role or duty to place ourselves in countries that don't believe the same. We can recommend, we can go in if other nations are also willing to share the burden, but it isn't on us to fix what's wrong elsewhere.
I guess one question is how do we structure teaching and/or verifying adherence to this social contract with immigrants that do want to naturalize? As in, what's the actual nuts and bolts of how to do this?
Oh I will, you can be assured of that! I've made it my mission in life to fight Progressivism wherever it rears it's ugly head. I'm guessing that you're probably doing the same.
Sounds like it'll be tough; just out of curiosity, how old are you roughly?
This sounds close to some of my views. I also want to throw in that it's not our role or duty to place ourselves in countries that don't believe the same. We can recommend, we can go in if other nations are also willing to share the burden, but it isn't on us to fix what's wrong elsewhere.
Yes, of course. A 3rd world, 7th century backward uncivilized ****hole is not gonna become a democracy overnight. Societies civilize gradually, generation after generation. Secondly, natives need to want it and do it themselves. You can't just impose it. Let them do it themselves. But we are going a lot off topic, I am afraid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I guess one question is how do we structure teaching and/or verifying adherence to this social contract with immigrants that do want to naturalize? As in, what's the actual nuts and bolts of how to do this?
Not until we overthrow the monopoly that progressives have on education. Meanwhile we need to restore the second pillar of assimilation -- work, contribution to society, "what can you do for America, not what America can do for you."
That means cutting off ANY and ALL freebies. It also means also deportation for illegal aliens. ALL of them. But deportation without punishment is a violation of basics of Law.
Imagine if we catch a bank-robber, simply take his stash, but not punishing him/her. You'll never see the end of bank-robberies, because there is no consequence for breaking the law.
Justice cannot exist without punishment. Not only we have to stop the magnetism of freebies, but we also need to elevate the risk of trying.
Sounds like it'll be tough; just out of curiosity, how old are you roughly?
Indeed it is tough, especially when I was living in New York. Not so much out here though. I'm amongst many like thinking individuals. I thank God for that. My age? That's a best kept secret. I'm not that old, am physically fit and probably got a good 20 to 30 years in me. If that's any help.
I sure hope that the country doesn't go down the drain during that time. We are marching towards a Socialist welfare state, it's not a matter of if, but when. It's gonna be really tough for the next generation, however most of them are too stupid to realize what a disaster that will be. I should be but am not surprised by the number of people supporting Sanders. The money to pay for all those freebie's has got to come from somewhere? The pathological liar from Illinois, Arkansas, New York or wherever the hell she claims she's from is no better. Sad to say neither is Trump, a man with no core political beliefs whatsoever except for Donald J. Trump. C'mon America can't we do better than that when choosing the next leader of the free world?
I was hoping for Ted Cruz a principled and true "Constitutionalist" to be sure. In the mold of Antonin Scalia. Maybe he'll get on the Supreme Court, one can only hope if Trump becomes president.
I'll just have to suck it up and vote for Trump as detestable as he is. Rest assured I will not be staying home on election day. I'd rather take my chances with the devil I don't know.
Last edited by Ex New Yorker; 05-15-2016 at 03:59 PM..
Yes, of course. A 3rd world, 7th century backward uncivilized ****hole is not gonna become a democracy overnight. Societies civilize gradually, generation after generation. Secondly, natives need to want it and do it themselves. You can't just impose it. Let them do it themselves. But we are going a lot off topic, I am afraid.
Not until we overthrow the monopoly that progressives have on education. Meanwhile we need to restore the second pillar of assimilation -- work, contribution to society, "what can you do for America, not what America can do for you."
That means cutting off ANY and ALL freebies. It also means also deportation for illegal aliens. ALL of them. But deportation without punishment is a violation of basics of Law.
Imagine if we catch a bank-robber, simply take his stash, but not punishing him/her. You'll never see the end of bank-robberies, because there is no consequence for breaking the law.
Justice cannot exist without punishment. Not only we have to stop the magnetism of freebies, but we also need to elevate the risk of trying.
Unfortunately with an estimated 12 to 20 million of them that would be nearly impossible. Let alone unconstitutional. No matter who they are they are all entitled to due process. Which we as Americans can never take the chance of giving up.
A more economical and feasible method would be to turn off the spigot that attracts them. As you've said "cutting off any and all freebies". Arrest and prosecute those who aid, abet and hire them. Have any and all material both broadcast and print including advertising in English only. Coming into the United States illegally would be no different than as if they landed on the moon.
What I don't understand is that in order to vote one must be an American citizen. For a foreigner to become a citizen they must be able to read write and understand the English language. Then why is it that when you vote there is a sign that reads "Vota Aqui"? That being the case then shouldn't there be signs in every language throughout the world? Hey, what an idea maybe we can file a discrimination suit? It's the Progressive way.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,547,174 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDot
The sad thing to me is that the look of the houses resemble Appalachia. It's unfortunate that as each year passes, the houses get more and more run-down and down-right uninhabitable looking. Shacks.
And really how can you blame people in upstate NY living in shacks. There are no jobs, the weather is a killer and makes everything rot, the property taxes/government perpetual lease fees are so sky-high if you have a job most of your income goes to pay that. Then if you try to fix up your government-leased property, the government raises your assessment and the taxes go even higher. People are so beaten down in upstate NY that everyone/place has the look of Appalachia in the 1930's. Sad.
well if you ask me the southern tier is a part of Appalachia. Transitional zone perhaps, sure, but still a part. I have always carried a certain pride about it personally.
There are a lot of places in upstate that aren't run down, but a lot of them are right next to places that are. Nobody should forget that NY is also part of the rust belt, and that shows too. Even up on the flat land where, arguably, there is more money.
I grew up in a handful of different places. From trailers to my grand-parents legit hillbilly farm house (Ma and Pa kettle style, no joking. I have photos of it right here on this site.)
From 1994-1997 my family got a break and we were living roughly middle class. Actually had a decent up-to-date home, had TV, had a Super Nintendo. Good times, really. Sure, we were renting the place but it wasn't the same crap I'd lived in before or would again. Buuuut things went badly and just stayed that way in late '97. That's the way the southern tier has been. Bursts of good times, then more rust. I feel like 2008 hit this part of the state even harder than the rest of it.
But that aside my heart belongs in these hills. I'll keep the struggle if it means I don't have to leave Appalachia again, even if I move further south into it.
Indeed it is tough, especially when I was living in New York. Not so much out here though. I'm amongst many like thinking individuals. I thank God for that. My age? That's a best kept secret. I'm not that old, am physically fit and probably got a good 20 to 30 years in me. If that's any help.
I sure hope that the country doesn't go down the drain during that time. We are marching towards a Socialist welfare state, it's not a matter of if, but when. It's gonna be really tough for the next generation, however most of them are too stupid to realize what a disaster that will be. I should be but am not surprised by the number of people supporting Sanders. The money to pay for all those freebie's has got to come from somewhere? The pathological liar from Illinois, Arkansas, New York or wherever the hell she claims she's from is no better. Sad to say neither is Trump, a man with no core political beliefs whatsoever except for Donald J. Trump. C'mon America can't we do better than that when choosing the next leader of the free world?
I was hoping for Ted Cruz a principled and true "Constitutionalist" to be sure. In the mold of Antonin Scalia. Maybe he'll get on the Supreme Court, one can only hope if Trump becomes president.
I'll just have to suck it up and vote for Trump as detestable as he is. Rest assured I will not be staying home on election day. I'd rather take my chances with the devil I don't know.
Meh, maybe some kind of third party candidate will actually end up being viable. Hell of a hail mary though.
Unfortunately with an estimated 12 to 20 million of them that would be nearly impossible. Let alone unconstitutional. No matter who they are they are all entitled to due process. Which we as Americans can never take the chance of giving up.
A more economical and feasible method would be to turn off the spigot that attracts them. As you've said "cutting off any and all freebies". Arrest and prosecute those who aid, abet and hire them. Have any and all material both broadcast and print including advertising in English only. Coming into the United States illegally would be no different than as if they landed on the moon.
Yes, we must do several things at once to stop and reverse illegal immigration. I do not agree with you that it nearly impossible. We have done it in the past, and can do again. Actually we have to.
But we can't accept amnesty or even partial amnesty. Imagine if we said "hey look, we will not arrest some bank robbers. Can't possibly arrest everybody." It would be anarchy.
Secondly, what's the standard here? "If you manage to get in, you may stay, because we can't round up everybody?" What if a few Chinese, let's say 200 million of them managed to get in, would they get to stay too? If not, why are discriminating against the Chinese?
Thirdly, if law applies selectively, who gets to select? Democrats?
No, as I said, not only you have to deport everybody, but you need to also punish these law-breakers, liars and cheaters in the case of visa violators.
I don't care that nobody talks about it -- if you think it thru rationally, it cannot be any other way.
Yes, we must do several things at once to stop and reverse illegal immigration. I do not agree with you that it nearly impossible. We have done it in the past, and can do again. Actually we have to.
But we can't accept amnesty or even partial amnesty. Imagine if we said "hey look, we will not arrest some bank robbers. Can't possibly arrest everybody." It would be anarchy.
Secondly, what's the standard here? "If you manage to get in, you may stay, because we can't round up everybody?" What if a few Chinese, let's say 200 million of them managed to get in, would they get to stay too? If not, why are discriminating against the Chinese?
Thirdly, if law applies selectively, who gets to select? Democrats?
No, as I said, not only you have to deport everybody, but you need to also punish these law-breakers, liars and cheaters in the case of visa violators.
I don't care that nobody talks about it -- if you think it thru rationally, it cannot be any other way.
Oh I agree we do have to do something to rid this nation of all the illegal invaders and their families regardless of how long they've been here.
No, I only meant that it would be impossible to go door to door and round up all the illegal invaders. I don't think any of us want to live in a "show me your papers" type of society. There's also the Constitutional matter of due process. Every illegal invader would have their day in court, The costs would be astronomical. It's up to the government to prove that they are here illegally. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. Without the right of due process, anyone at any time could be arrested for anything and thrown in jail without a trial.
I really wish we could round them all up and deport them including all of the anchor babies. But sacrificing our civil liberties is not the way to go. What wouldn't be impossible is to turn off the spigot that attracts them as I've mentioned before. They would have no reason to come here and those who remain will have no reason to stay. It also wouldn't be in violation of the Constitution. We do not owe these invaders anything, they are not entitled to anything. Turn off the spigot, arrest all those who aid and abet them including religious institutions and these invaders will self deport.
We're both on the same page there brother. You make some very valid points, and I agree with you 100% it's just that our methods of solving this problem are slightly different.
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