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Transgenderism is an illness only to those who see "normal" human sexuality as a strictly heterosexual phenomenon rather than a spectrum.
You misunderstand in two ways, Suzy. First, gender identity and sexual orientation are different things. Also, nobody thinks human sexuality is just hetero. The debate is between those whose see a "spectrum" and those who think you're either gay or you're straight.
No girls in Boy Scouts. No boys in Girl Scouts. That is why they are names what they are. Anyone who challenges it is a moron. There is nothing discriminatory about it. Boys and girls are not the same nor equal. Each have their strengths. Let it go already.
I am greatly concerned with this shift, especially since most non-conforming gender children do not become an adult transgender and developmentally individual sexual identity does not truly begin to develop until mid-to-late teens. I fear some of this is akin to Munchausen by proxy - it is a real attention getter for the parent.
This is absolutely not true. What you are saying is that the parent is somehow convincing the child to pretend that he is transgender. If you are going to say that you need to back it up with some evidence.
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Originally Posted by MJJersey
Oh come on. Is it sad that the kid killed himself? Yes. But the cause of death was not "intolerance", it was his stepping out in front of a train. Plus, I do not see anything in the snippet of the suicide note that indicates he blamed his parents for anything.
The note did not blame the parents. The mother's refusal to accept her transgender child as such is a known high risk factor for suicide of the child.
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Originally Posted by Kaphawoman
You don't know many kids. I was a Girl Scout, and I would not have wanted a boy in the troop. Had nothing to do with anything my parents told me and doesn't mean I hate men or boys. How do you think these groups got started anyway? It's natural for people--esp. children and adolescents--to crave their own spaces for development among similar individuals. They deserve that without one person trying to ruin it.
How would a child who looked and behaved like a girl and was interested in the activities of the troop "ruin it" for anyone?
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Originally Posted by MJJersey
This is what I don't buy about the transgendered issue. The premise is that a person is born with the "wrong body." It's treated with therapy, sex hormones, and surgery. Yet we are not allow to call it an "illness." How does that work?
Why is it necessary to apply a label to people who do not wish to be burdened with it?
All that does is provide a cop out for folks who do not want to allow transgenders to live as they wish.
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Originally Posted by Dbones
They are in pain because they have an underlying mental disorder. They aren't transgendered, they are nuts and need medication. There is only a very tiny percentage that were actually born wrong, like .1% if that. The rest of the 99.9% are just mentally unstable and are looking for attention.
There is no mental disorder to treat. Transgendered people cannot be cured with medication or psychotherapy. Treatment may help them deal with the stress of living as trangendered, but it will not make them no longer be transgendered.
Considering how they are treated and the suicide risk, who would want to be transgendered as a way to get attention?
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Originally Posted by Workin_Hard
And I (and most others) don't give a single sh*t about the "feelwings" of the addle-minded or their inability to look at their bodies to figure out if they're male or female as all humans as born - not "assigned" nor decided later in life nor a negotiable fact. This critter needs to be told "you're a girl and cannot be in BSA" and if there are internal conflicts get it to a doctor. If therapy and a proper amount of medication cannot solve the dilemma inside its' skull, then I believe it should be kept securely apart from society. Society has no obligation as a whole, nor do we as individuals, to accommodate its' delusions. And the same holds for all who harbor such madness.
I will not stand idly by and say nothing to facilitate the progressives' march towards making ours a fantasy world where reality has no hold. Those born male are male until death. Those born female remain so until death. Mutilation and cosmetic science experiments do not change that. The concept of gender identity is a myth concocted by liberal academics hiding from reality in their pot-induced comas. I don't want my daughter ever taught that boys are not always boys, girls are girls by choice, or that it's a changeable condition according to one's whims, or that she will ever have to tolerate freaks in the everyday world and accept them as normal.
I worked in a psych unit high school through college and became well acquainted with the practices and realities of the system and its' inhabitants. I understand well the dangers such individuals can present. Those under the illusion of being born into the wrong body are no exception.
Get such creatures help, and if it doesn't work, then isolate them.
I was well into my 40s when I had my child, so your assertion of my being too young is off, as are most of your ideals.
This is just sad. Attitudes like this help no one. It appears you learned nothing in your experience on a "psych unit."
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1
You can support your child without creating a media circus. It would start with age appropriate discussions about what they are feeling and exploring what they do and don't have a right to expect of those outside their own family. Failing to teach a child that experiences these internal conflicts how to deal in a healthy way with rejection from people outside their inner circle is a huge mistake. This includes a frank talk about how you can't control how others feel, and only sometimes how they behave, which means even if you can force others to do what you want you can't successfully demand they approve of your choices. I'm sure the knee jerk reaction to what I just wrote is "Not fair!" I agree, it isn't fair but as unfortunate as it is, it is their reality and the sooner they learn how to navigate the pitfalls the better the child will cope. There should also be age appropriate discussions about options they can choose as they age, such as hormones and surgery, if they still feel this way when they reach those ages. It is a disservice to smooth a bumpy road for a child, instead you should be teaching them how to successfully travel it, bumps and all.
Although some children with gender dysphoria at an early age may no longer have it as puberty hits and hormones change, what about those who still have it when they are teenagers? What harm is done by allowing a younger child to dress and behave as the gender he or she thinks she is if that is no longer true when he or she is older? It seems to me that that trying to force a child who is truly transgender to dress and behave as his birth sex when he or she does not want to do so has the potential to produce great harm.
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Originally Posted by Oldhag1
For what reason is it a good thing? She did crafts with them, took them camping, they earned badges, sold Girl Scout cookies, and all kinds of other Girl Scout activities. She was a fine leader who volunteered her time to enrich the lives of little girls. Her belief that a child with a penis would create problems in her troop that she did not want to deal with, especially on camping trips, did not preclude her from being a good leader. Why should she, as a volunteer, have to address those issues? The transgendered child's mother should have started a troop, that way this would not have been a problem, given the national HQ's theory. They are always looking for volunteer leaders, they never have enough. But that's right, Mom just wanted to everyone else to change how they felt or operated. If she had really cared she would have given up her own time and formed a troop that she knew would be non-hostile towards her child's inclusion.
And, that was at least 20 little girls in two different troops, most troops have over 10 girls so it was probably more.
What "problems" did she expect a child with a penis (who wanted to look and act like a girl and was interested in the crafts, the camping, earning badges and selling cookies) was going to cause? As far as camping is concerned, I suspect that the biggest problems she would have encountered would have been insect bites, poison ivy, and homesickness.
Good grief. Families with boys and girls manage to go camping all the time. They find a way to provide each other privacy for toileting and bathing.
It is truly disheartening that you wish to blame the mother for having a transgender child. It's also disheartening that a scout leader would create a hostile environment for any child, so the woman you are talking about was better off not being involved with scouting, I think.
I guess the mother of the transgendered child would be expected to start a troop only for transgendered children, right? Obviously, that would mean never associating with other troops composed only of "normal" girls, right? Just stay in the closet and don't make other parents nervous.
The "T" community says that being trans is not an illness but they want the same reasonable accommodations as people who do have an illness. You can't have it both ways. This is also not just about boyscouts. Trans activists want us to rearrange bathrooms and sports teams and other areas of society. This kid can join other groups that accept girls, like every other girl. If, at 18, she wants to get the axe and change her birth certificate then that's fine. It's her choice. But until then she needs to use the girl's room.
Rearrange bathrooms? How are bathrooms being rearranged for trans people? How are sports teams being rearranged? Why do you get to decide who uses what bathroom and when? How does it concern you? And don't even try to argue molestation concerns, because that's not even an issue and probably never will be. These poor kids don't want to rape others, they want to use whatever stall makes them feel comfortable. Same with adults. And I'll say it again, there won't be a flood of people claiming to be another gender just to creep on women in the bathroom or for other reasons because no one WANTS to be transgender and live that life, and no one in their right mind would fake it. Men (some not all) always have been and always will be creeps, and creep on women in ways including putting hidden cameras in bathrooms and dressing rooms. People act like people will suddenly get creepy when you allow transgender people to use their desired bathrooms - 1. as if it'll actually happen and 2. as if people out there aren't already creepy pervs.
What you don't seem to get is that a trans child in most if not all cases will not look like their born gender, not externally, from anything we can see - especially before puberty. Really all it takes is a certain hairstyle and certain clothes and the kid will have nearly everyone fooled. A trans boy (girl to boy) looks like any other boy. Like any other younger boy, he may be on the stronger or taller side, or on the weaker or smaller side. He may be great at sports or outdoorsy things and he may not be - like any boy. With hormone therapy, whenever that comes in, he or she will look and act even more like the desired gender. So if a trans 8 year old boy (girl to boy) is playing on the baseball team, looking like any other boy, how is that "rearranging" anything? If a trans girl (boy to girl) uses a stall in the girl's bathroom, how is that rearranging anything? 9 times out of 10 the general public probably won't even know a trans child when they see one, because they don't walk around looking like their born gender but acting like the opposite - they go around looking and acting how they identify.
People focus too much on gender, gender roles and gender differences. It's a weird obsession we have as a society with fitting people into perfect boxes.
Last edited by JerseyGirl415; 12-29-2016 at 11:40 PM..
This is absolutely not true. What you are saying is that the parent is somehow convincing the child to pretend that he is transgender. If you are going to say that you need to back it up with some evidence.
No, like actual Munchausers by proxy the child starts out with something indicating they are different, the problem is when the parent blows it up and it becomes a circus.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Although some children with gender dysphoria at an early age may no longer have it as puberty hits and hormones change, what about those who still have it when they are teenagers? What harm is done by allowing a younger child to dress and behave as the gender he or she thinks she is if that is no longer true when he or she is older? It seems to me that that trying to force a child who is truly transgender to dress and behave as his birth sex when he or she does not want to do so has the potential to produce great harm.
When I was young I hated being a girl. I grew up during a time when gender roles were very well defined and girls were not even allowed to wear pants to school. I hated jewelry, makeup, long hair, and girl's clothes, especially dresses or skirts. To this day ruffles and bows still make me want to gag. I loved sports and preferred trucks and guns to boring girl toys. If my parents had let me I would have shaved my hair and dressed like a boy. I thought boys got to live such a cooler life and would have told you I really, really wanted to be a boy. I was even totally jealous my brothers could aim their pee at things. I was the very definition of a tomboy.
I expressed how much I wished I had been born a boy often to my parents who just told me that wasn't how the good Lord made me. And yes, I did cry about it more than a few times. They did allow me to wear jeans and cowboy boots at home but in public I had to dress like a proper little lady. I am so glad I grew up when I did instead of today, otherwise I would have been labeled one of those boys in a girl's body. And I wasn't. I just liked boy's stuff better. In high school I finally figured out that there were some things I liked about being a girl that involved boys. From that point forward wishful thinking of being a boy disappeared forever. Today I love being a wife and mother, even though I still avoid doing the girly things such as wearing heels, jewelry, or makeup. As this stuff has been coming up it has made me wonder what would have happened if I were a child today and I suspect I would have ended up being confused about who I am and not as happy of a person as an adult.
This is why I am adamant that there is an appropriate time to address this and it isn't this young. There have been Dutch studies that have found at least half of all children with gender dysmorphia no longer feel that way once they hit puberty. Unfortunately, they haven't figured out how to tell which kids will end up which way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
What "problems" did she expect a child with a penis (who wanted to look and act like a girl and was interested in the crafts, the camping, earning badges and selling cookies) was going to cause? As far as camping is concerned, I suspect that the biggest problems she would have encountered would have been insect bites, poison ivy, and homesickness.
Good grief. Families with boys and girls manage to go camping all the time. They find a way to provide each other privacy for toileting and bathing.
Doesn't matter. She thought there would be problems and since she was a volunteer she had every right to say no thank you. Good grief, families are not the same type of organization as a youth group. Very different rules and mores.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
It is truly disheartening that you wish to blame the mother for having a transgender child. It's also disheartening that a scout leader would create a hostile environment for any child, so the woman you are talking about was better off not being involved with scouting, I think.
Whose "blaming" her for having a transgender child? I have always maintained that if you don't like the job a volunteer does then do it yourself - regardless of why or what it is. No, it isn't better that she's not involved in scouts, especially for the children who no longer had a troop they enjoyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
I guess the mother of the transgendered child would be expected to start a troop only for transgendered children, right? Obviously, that would mean never associating with other troops composed only of "normal" girls, right? Just stay in the closet and don't make other parents nervous.
Nope. Nope. Nope. The parents of the other children could decide whether or not they wanted their child in the troop and, if they didn't like it, they would either need to find a different troop and/or volunteer to be a leader themselves so they could form a new troop. See how that works?
__________________
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When I was young I hated being a girl. I grew up during a time when gender roles were very well defined and girls were not even allowed to wear pants to school. I hated jewelry, makeup, long hair, and girl's clothes, especially dresses or skirts. To this day ruffles and bows still make me want to gag. I loved sports and preferred trucks and guns to boring girl toys. If my parents had let me I would have shaved my hair and dressed like a boy. I thought boys got to live such a cooler life and would have told you I really, really wanted to be a boy. I was even totally jealous my brothers could aim their pee at things. I was the very definition of a tomboy.
I expressed how much I wished I had been born a boy often to my parents who just told me that wasn't how the good Lord made me. And yes, I did cry about it more than a few times. They did allow me to wear jeans and cowboy boots at home but in public I had to dress like a proper little lady. I am so glad I grew up when I did instead of today, otherwise I would have been labeled one of those boys in a girl's body. And I wasn't. I just liked boy's stuff better. In high school I finally figured out that there were some things I liked about being a girl that involved boys. From that point forward wishful thinking of being a boy disappeared forever. Today I love being a wife and mother, even though I still avoid doing the girly things such as wearing heels, jewelry, or makeup. As this stuff has been coming up it has made me wonder what would have happened if I were a child today and I suspect I would have ended up being confused about who I am and not as happy of a person as an adult.
This is why I am adamant that there is an appropriate time to address this and it isn't this young. There have been Dutch studies that have found at least half of all children with gender dysmorphia no longer feel that way once they hit puberty. Unfortunately, they haven't figured out how to tell which kids will end up which way.
There is a difference between wishing you were a boy and liking traditional "boy" things better than "girl" things, and actually feeling like a boy inside, feeling like you were trapped in the wrong body from an extremely young age. I can't say how it feels exactly because I am not transgender but from what I understand about it, many children express from a very young age that they do not feel like the gender they were born with, determined by their genitalia. It's not even really about gender roles as much as it's about the chemistry, I guess, behind the sexes. Males and females are obviously biologically different, and clearly something goes wrong in transgender people that makes them feel, truly feel, like someone they are not. Given how much can go wrong in the developmental process in the womb, as simple as one DNA mutation, it would not be surprising to me if transgenderism WAS caused by some abnormality in fetal development.
But your story, and stories of actual transgender children, is exactly why there should be nothing wrong, and IMO really isn't, with allowing children to be who they want (not just necessarily who they SAY they are, but who they WANT to be). Gender IS a social construct. Sex obviously is not but the idea of gender is - boy things and girl things, male roles and female roles. Blue is a boy color because society says so. Sports is more for boys because society says so. Dolls are more for girls because society says so. If a little boy likes dolls, there really should be nothing wrong with allowing him to play with them. There should be nothing wrong with a boy having longer hair if he wants (though on boys IMO it's often way less tamed and just looks ragged) or girls having short hair. Society has decided that women wear dresses, and men do not. Nothing in the way our bodies are designed says this is a necessary wardrobe distinction between the sexes, that women wear dresses and guys don't, it just is because we have made it so.
There's nothing wrong with being a tomboy or a boy who is more "feminine." It's society, generations of people and still many people today who have decided that allowing these things is not okay. That boys should not play with dolls, and crying makes them weak, and that girls shouldn't be allowed to play on the boys baseball team at age 8. The only reason things are the way they are regarding gender roles is because we said so. We can change it whenever we wish as a society, just like we created it in the first place.
Sure, some, maybe most, kids who live life opposite of their expected gender roles will grow out of it - they're not transgender, then. But those who don't may be - and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that IMO. I don't think it harms anyone to let the transgender boy be a Boy Scout. I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing a regular 8 year old girl to play on the boys' team. At that age, it doesn't really matter.
There is a difference between wishing you were a boy and liking traditional "boy" things better than "girl" things, and actually feeling like a boy inside, feeling like you were trapped in the wrong body from an extremely young age. I can't say how it feels exactly because I am not transgender but from what I understand about it, many children express from a very young age that they do not feel like the gender they were born with, determined by their genitalia. It's not even really about gender roles as much as it's about the chemistry, I guess, behind the sexes. Males and females are obviously biologically different, and clearly something goes wrong in transgender people that makes them feel, truly feel, like someone they are not. Given how much can go wrong in the developmental process in the womb, as simple as one DNA mutation, it would not be surprising to me if transgenderism WAS caused by some abnormality in fetal development.
But your story, and stories of actual transgender children, is exactly why there should be nothing wrong, and IMO really isn't, with allowing children to be who they want (not just necessarily who they SAY they are, but who they WANT to be). Gender IS a social construct. Sex obviously is not but the idea of gender is - boy things and girl things, male roles and female roles. Blue is a boy color because society says so. Sports is more for boys because society says so. Dolls are more for girls because society says so. If a little boy likes dolls, there really should be nothing wrong with allowing him to play with them. There should be nothing wrong with a boy having longer hair if he wants (though on boys IMO it's often way less tamed and just looks ragged) or girls having short hair. Society has decided that women wear dresses, and men do not. Nothing in the way our bodies are designed says this is a necessary wardrobe distinction between the sexes, that women wear dresses and guys don't, it just is because we have made it so.
There's nothing wrong with being a tomboy or a boy who is more "feminine." It's society, generations of people and still many people today who have decided that allowing these things is not okay. That boys should not play with dolls, and crying makes them weak, and that girls shouldn't be allowed to play on the boys baseball team at age 8. The only reason things are the way they are regarding gender roles is because we said so. We can change it whenever we wish as a society, just like we created it in the first place.
Sure, some, maybe most, kids who live life opposite of their expected gender roles will grow out of it - they're not transgender, then. But those who don't may be - and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that IMO. I don't think it harms anyone to let the transgender boy be a Boy Scout. I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing a regular 8 year old girl to play on the boys' team. At that age, it doesn't really matter.
Did you not read what I said? I know exactly how it feels. Too many of these children are too young to be labeled, doing so will damage the ones who do grow out of it, and the research indicates that is not a small percentage. It's fine to allow children to dress how they wish, but it is nuts to change a child's name, insist everyone (including the child) pretend they have different genitalia, require everyone to use different pronouns, and demand everyone to accept it. This is a child that will either grow out of it or who needs to learn how to deal with being different that the average person. Either way, making it a public circus, complete with pictures splashed all over the Internet, is not in the child's best interest.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
There is a difference between wishing you were a boy and liking traditional "boy" things better than "girl" things, and actually feeling like a boy inside, feeling like you were trapped in the wrong body from an extremely young age. I can't say how it feels exactly because I am not transgender but from what I understand about it, many children express from a very young age that they do not feel like the gender they were born with, determined by their genitalia. It's not even really about gender roles as much as it's about the chemistry, I guess, behind the sexes.
Yup. That's the level of science this stuff is based on.
I guess the mother of the transgendered child would be expected to start a troop only for transgendered children, right? Obviously, that would mean never associating with other troops composed only of "normal" girls, right? Just stay in the closet and don't make other parents nervous.
That's not a bad idea actually . Transgender scouts. Problem solved .
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