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Old 05-31-2009, 05:59 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 10,094,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIS123 View Post
You really should move to a Communist state.
Western Europe is communist?
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:20 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 1,548,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
I think you missed this part...



You are using the government as a bully to push your individual will on the minority for the only reason as that they may make more money. Not only that, but the "obnoxious individual" bands together with like individuals to form a power which dispenses its own brand of justice on the people. It does so without respect to individual rights as is mentioned here following the above quote. What you call a "fear tactic" is actually the purpose of our government and you dislike it because you believe your will should be a burden on the people because your individual belief is more important than that of any other.

That is arrogant and an oppressive view built by self serving individuals who feign concern for individual rights, yet stomp on them whenever it conflicts with their demands.

Your disregard for the founders warnings is not anything new or special, it was discussed that the masses would allow corruption to achieve its foothold. It will be you who is surprised when your selfish interest backfires eventually.
First of all - the paper you cite talks of 'factions in a 'pure democracy' - which we most definitely are not - we are a Representative Democracy... so all that you quote is not relevant to today - it was relevant when the nation was debating what form of government to have and what the Constitution should contain - but not to the discussion of UHC today - that is an astronomical leap of logic...

I would say the 'factions' today are really the lobbyists - they wield far far more power than the people... You cannot say that popular sentiment has an undue sway on our elected officials - if so - our borders would be closed to illegal immigration right now...

I view your posting as one more desperate attempt to thwart something that is good for the nation as a whole - but viewed as an unnecessary and expensive 'entitlement' by the privileged.

If you want to attack 'factions' - go after the lobbyists - they are far far more a faction than anything else... they impose their will on the majority by bribing elected officials.

I think you are just a cold-hearted person who is adamantly opposed to UHC - and using the Federalist Papers (of all things) in some desperate and screw-ball attempt to argue against it...

Wierd - but whatever turns you on...

Like it or not - the nation - and our elected officials - are moving towards some form of UHC - and I for one applaud the movement... This is NOT about imposing will on others - anymore than ANY other legislation that confers rights and obligations on people - like Social Security, Medicare, taxes in general... is about imposing will on others. It's about providing a government service that the majority of the public, and THE MAJORITY OF ELECTED OFFICIALS, agree should be provided..

For those who have to be brought to the party kicking and screaming, oh well, they'll eventually embrace it for the public good - and if not - they'll just have to participate as the law dictates - like under many other governmental laws and programs.

Last edited by HubbleRules; 05-31-2009 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:34 PM
 
4,176 posts, read 6,005,009 times
Reputation: 1862
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Western Europe is communist?
Universal Healthcare has been a failure wherever it has been tried and, on top of that, we have no money to pay for it. The Government is currently running a $ 2 Trillion deficit with massive funding shortages moving forward. The UHC plan will lead to rationing and lower quality care.

UHC also gives the Government authority to regulate other areas of our lives and justify that as relating to Healthcare. Maybe they'll tax certain foods more, tax those who don't workout, charge us based on BMI, charge people who engage in activities like biking and hiking (i.e. high risk). Who would want to go to Medical School with such an Authoritarian regime?

If people knew how poor the care through UHC would be, they wouldn't want it!

If Government limits the profits that Pharmaceutical companies can make, they have no incentive to make new drugs. Same for devices. Government programs DON'T work. The same Government that is running massive deficits and debts and may devalue the currency should not run the Healthcare system.

Look at the Government run Healthcare programs that already exist. Medicare and Medicaid are significantly underfunded and have unfunded liabilities in the trillions of Dollars moving forward. One of the reasons that Physicians charge so much to patients with private Insurance is that they make so little from those with Gov insurance.
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:35 PM
 
Location: um....guess
10,479 posts, read 14,863,443 times
Reputation: 1833
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIS123 View Post
Universal Healthcare has been a failure wherever it has been tried and, on top of that
Well if that were true I suspect we'd see a serious rise in deaths due to it. I don't think that has happened, do you?
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:37 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 10,094,454 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIS123 View Post
Universal Healthcare has been a failure wherever it has been tried and, on top of that, we have no money to pay for it. The Government is currently running a $ 2 Trillion deficit with massive funding shortages moving forward. The UHC plan will lead to rationing and lower quality care.

UHC also gives the Government authority to regulate other areas of our lives and justify that as relating to Healthcare. Maybe they'll tax certain foods more, tax those who don't workout, charge us based on BMI, charge people who engage in activities like biking and hiking (i.e. high risk). Who would want to go to Medical School with such an Authoritarian regime?

If people knew how poor the care through UHC would be, they wouldn't want it!

If Government limits the profits that Pharmaceutical companies can make, they have no incentive to make new drugs. Same for devices. Government programs DON'T work. The same Government that is running massive deficits and debts and may devalue the currency should not run the Healthcare system.

Look at the Government run Healthcare programs that already exist. Medicare and Medicaid are significantly underfunded and have unfunded liabilities in the trillions of Dollars moving forward. One of the reasons that Physicians charge so much to patients with private Insurance is that they make so little from those with Gov insurance.
All this paranoia aside, I was just wondering why you'd tell someone to move to a communist state in a topic on healthcare.
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:43 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 1,548,993 times
Reputation: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIS123 View Post
Universal Healthcare has been a failure wherever it has been tried and, on top of that, we have no money to pay for it. The Government is currently running a $ 2 Trillion deficit with massive funding shortages moving forward. The UHC plan will lead to rationing and lower quality care.

UHC also gives the Government authority to regulate other areas of our lives and justify that as relating to Healthcare. Maybe they'll tax certain foods more, tax those who don't workout, charge us based on BMI, charge people who engage in activities like biking and hiking (i.e. high risk). Who would want to go to Medical School with such an Authoritarian regime?

If people knew how poor the care through UHC would be, they wouldn't want it!

If Government limits the profits that Pharmaceutical companies can make, they have no incentive to make new drugs. Same for devices. Government programs DON'T work. The same Government that is running massive deficits and debts and may devalue the currency should not run the Healthcare system.

Look at the Government run Healthcare programs that already exist. Medicare and Medicaid are significantly underfunded and have unfunded liabilities in the trillions of Dollars moving forward. One of the reasons that Physicians charge so much to patients with private Insurance is that they make so little from those with Gov insurance.
That's just more propaganda spewed by the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh and others who are unconditionally against entitlements for the masses and who continue to spew half-truths and examples of failure elsewhere...

There are examples of successful UHC - check out the information in this Frontline series and you will see that UHC has been very successfully employed elseswhere. Personally, I hope we gravitate towards a Germany (Bismark) model...

news + public affairs player: video
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,352 posts, read 114,294,990 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilypad View Post
Well, Nomander, integrity, hard work and taking full responsibility for oneself and family are just no longer values for many here. Putting a value on these will only engeander hostility to those who have shunned them and view themselves as better than. And entitled...to your money. Socialism, the buzzword of the day. Spread that wealth around, tax those suckers who have made a successful life for themselves! Take from the rich, give to the poor. Robin Hoodism, sounds great doesn't it? Ahhhh, empathy. Til the reality hits....that our government has sold us out and down river to drown in a financial debt tsunami we may never climb out from under. We are destined for third worldism, but hey, we won't have to pay for healthcare, wheeeeeeee....
Yes, the only ones who have any personal integrity are those who agree 100% with you two. I think the hostility comes from those who are so worried that someone else is going to get more than they do from UHC, or any other kind of health care reform.

And anyone foolish enough to think that one can funtion well without a nose should not be engaged in any discussion about health care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karfar View Post
Well if that were true I suspect we'd see a serious rise in deaths due to it. I don't think that has happened, do you?
No. People in UHC countries live longer, statisitcally.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:00 PM
 
13,056 posts, read 12,423,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HubbleRules View Post
More BS scare tactics... nothing more...

The 'faction' that you warn about is an elite, over-priviledged upper-class that uses the working class as a vehicle to profits - and nothing more.

Note the heated 'passion' that follows when you suggest that the rich pay 1% more in income taxes, or that the severe inequality in income distribution be lessened, or that the safety-net of limited entitlements be strengthened, or capital gains tax be increased by a fraction... THEN you hear quite angry, passionate diatribe and threats... from the rich and powerful...
the rich pay most of the taxes already. You would know this if you were not so busy proclaiming them evil and greedy for not picking up ALL of your tab. Seriously, this is like talking to a bunch of children who have no concept of responsibility. The very fact that you call individual freedom BS points out the arrogance of your position and the spoiled manner of your situation. It is sicking to see such irresponsible arrogance.
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:02 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 1,548,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yes, the only ones who have any personal integrity are those who agree 100% with you two. I think the hostility comes from those who are so worried that someone else is going to get more than they do from UHC, or any other kind of health care reform.

And anyone foolish enough to think that one can funtion well without a nose should not be engaged in any discussion about health care.



No. People in UHC countries live longer, statisitcally.
You are so right - but just let them throw their temper tantrums... you can't reason with people who are so heartless that they would deny someone reconstructive surgery after suffering a very grotesque and totally visible injury...

I imagine they would have told the recipients of recent face-transplants to just 'suck it up' and get on with their lives and forget the expensive surgery since they couldn't afford it...

Some people are so consumed with their pocketbooks and their precious stockpiles of wealth - that they've ceased to be caring human beings.

And you are also right - UHC countries rank ABOVE us in general health and longevity... - we rank 37th...
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:04 PM
 
4,176 posts, read 6,005,009 times
Reputation: 1862
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
All this paranoia aside, I was just wondering why you'd tell someone to move to a communist state in a topic on healthcare.
It wasn't meant to you. It was for someone else who said that the money we earn is NOT ours, so long as the Government sees fit to tax it. That's a scary thought; it's our money. We earn it, they tax it. Had we not earned the money, it wouldn't exist.
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