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God I wish I knew. If I knew why there are suddenly so many psychos and wackos out there joining PUAs and all kinds of crap, I'd for sure publish a book and get very wealthy. Something went wrong somewhere along the way in this country.
I think the music/video scene might be partly responsible. My growing up years were back during the days of real singers and song writers. Some of the best were poets. My fondest memories are of getting a new album by artists like James Taylor, Gordon Lightfoot and John Denver. We had hard rock in those years too but nothing like the trash young people are exposed to now days. We didn't have the near X rated sex and violence videos either. All you have to do is take one look at a Miley Cyrus music video to see how desperate young people are to essentially be vulgar. Women are openly called every vile name in the book in these videos. It has had a corrosive effect on the public.
You make a very good point here. It's all become vulgar for its own sake and not with any sort of artistic point in mind.
You're not a woman, though. It hasn't been directed at you, so it might be easier to miss.
All that needs to happen is a few guys, here and there but on a regular basis, being creepy and gross. Women will start to act and dress differently after that. They can't exactly think, "Well, only 5% of the time do I get groped or leered at or followed, or have something vile said to me, that's not enough reason to start making myself 'sexless'!" That's not how it works.
These experiences can be very traumatic, particularly when they start when a girl is very young (and often that's when they start). Why on earth should they continually put themselves out there when the harassment can come at any time, and will not stop?
I can't dispute much of that, but it ignores my point that women overgeneralize about men's evil (e.g., anyone on a men's site hates women) and its conclusion is defeatist and actually increases male desperation (concentrating more attention on a shrinking percentage of good-looking women). I tentatively accept defeat re convincing creepy/desperate men to not bother women (any ideas?), but I believe there's a style women (post-college anyway) can have that looks attractive but discourages thirsty men. I might as well call it young married style. Elegant hair, some jewelry, heels, clothes that show some shape but little skin and are quite different from what most teens wear. Men who just want to get some fast are unlikely to approach women like that.
I can't dispute much of that, but it ignores my point that women overgeneralize about men's evil (e.g., anyone on a men's site hates women)
And men generalize about women, all the time. Like you generalize and think that we are hating men because we don't think we should be the ones doing all the work to correct a problem that seem to affect men, and not us . . . Especially since it's within men's control to do something, but they won't.
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and its conclusion is defeatist and actually increases male desperation (concentrating more attention on a shrinking percentage of good-looking women).
Too bad. What can I say? Each woman must look out for herself. I reported earlier that I was harassed while wearing a tent-like poncho. Many men have no class and will bother anything female.
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I tentatively accept defeat re convincing creepy/desperate men to not bother women (any ideas?),
Wearing sexless, unflattering clothes and gaining weight!
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but I believe there's a style women (post-college anyway) can have that looks attractive but discourages thirsty men. I might as well call it young married style. Elegant hair, some jewelry, heels, clothes that show some shape but little skin and are quite different from what most teens wear. Men who just want to get some fast are unlikely to approach women like that.
No, I don't think that's going to work. I mean, sure, if a woman dresses like that and doesn't get creepy attention, more power to her. But many of us have tried and tried and it doesn't help. There will always be men who will harass anything female. It doesn't matter if she's 12, if she's blossomed into a female shape she will get leers, stares, creepy talk, and worse.
It's time for the men to police themselves. If we don't want to dress in order to give men something to look at, that's our right. We've put up with enough.
I can't dispute much of that, but it ignores my point that women overgeneralize about men's evil (e.g., anyone on a men's site hates women) and its conclusion is defeatist and actually increases male desperation (concentrating more attention on a shrinking percentage of good-looking women). I tentatively accept defeat re convincing creepy/desperate men to not bother women (any ideas?), but I believe there's a style women (post-college anyway) can have that looks attractive but discourages thirsty men. I might as well call it young married style. Elegant hair, some jewelry, heels, clothes that show some shape but little skin and are quite different from what most teens wear. Men who just want to get some fast are unlikely to approach women like that.
There's something that I don't think has been mentioned, or that might've been mentioned and I missed, and it is this. NOBODY likes a person who doesn't strive, who refuses to make an effort, a person who blames the world for his own failures, a person who is like a slug and just whines and expects people to chew his food for him, and throws a tantrum when they don't.
I come from a Spanish family which prizes striving and strength. My grandparents went through a lot and struggled daily to get to a place at which they had achieved something, and even then they didn't stop. Unless the person has been diagnosed as disabled, has an illness, or suffered a tremendous tragedy (the death of family members, the loss of a home or business, eyesight, discrimination, concentration camps, etc.) I see no excuse for someone expecting the world to reward him without him making any effort, or blaming the world for not providing him with the luxuries and pleasures he desires. People who are like that (men or women) are so unbelievably unpleasant that I for one don't want them within a mile of me.
I LOVE people who fail, learn from failure, suffer the failure, but then continue on and try something new or improve. Whiners who whine to the point at which they make themselves totally psycho will never have a place in my life. Strength is admirable and beautiful.
There's something that I don't think has been mentioned, or that might've been mentioned and I missed, and it is this. NOBODY likes a person who doesn't strive, who refuses to make an effort, a person who blames the world for his own failures, a person who is like a slug and just whines and expects people to chew his food for him, and throws a tantrum when they don't.
I come from a Spanish family which prizes striving and strength. My grandparents went through a lot and struggled daily to get to a place at which they had achieved something, and even then they didn't stop. Unless the person has been diagnosed as disabled, has an illness, or suffered a tremendous tragedy (the death of family members, the loss of a home or business, eyesight, discrimination, concentration camps, etc.) I see no excuse for someone expecting the world to reward him without him making any effort, or blaming the world for not providing him with the luxuries and pleasures he desires. People who are like that (men or women) are so unbelievably unpleasant that I for one don't want them within a mile of me.
I LOVE people who fail, learn from failure, suffer the failure, but then continue on and try something new or improve. Whiners who whine to the point at which they make themselves totally psycho will never have a place in my life. Strength is admirable and beautiful.
Great post. However, my standards are even a little higher. I had a father who WAS disabled--lost both legs in WWII, was hit by shrapnel twice on the same night before they could get the wounded out, amputations below the knee. He learned to walk on prosthetics, went to college because he couldn't work in his former occupation, married my mom and had seven kids. We weren't rich, but we lived in a nice town in a nice house with vacations to the mountains every year. My father never felt sorry for himself and was always pleasant and helped others he saw who were worse off than he. He's been gone about fifteen years now.
I have little tolerance for these wusses of no character who sit around wallowing in self-pity. Become somebody. Be a man.
Great post. However, my standards are even a little higher. I had a father who WAS disabled--lost both legs in WWII, was hit by shrapnel twice on the same night before they could get the wounded out, amputations below the knee. He learned to walk on prosthetics, went to college because he couldn't work in his former occupation, married my mom and had seven kids. We weren't rich, but we lived in a nice town in a nice house with vacations to the mountains every year. My father never felt sorry for himself and was always pleasant and helped others he saw who were worse off than he. He's been gone about fifteen years now.
I have little tolerance for these wusses of no character who sit around wallowing in self-pity. Become somebody. Be a man.
See? There you go. If anyone should get a pass to whine, it would be someone like your dad, but he didn't whine. He tried hard despite his disabilities, and didn't feel sorry for himself. When I think of people like your dad, I realize just how whiny people some people are nowadays, people who have no reason to be whiny, people who have intelligence, who have all their limbs, who aren't homeless. Makes no sense. I'm thinking they just feel very entitled and don't want to let go of that feeling that they're entitled.
And men generalize about women, all the time. Like you generalize and think that we are hating men because we don't think we should be the ones doing all the work to correct a problem that seem to affect men, and not us . . . Especially since it's within men's control to do something, but they won't.
Too bad. What can I say? Each woman must look out for herself. I reported earlier that I was harassed while wearing a tent-like poncho. Many men have no class and will bother anything female.
Wearing sexless, unflattering clothes and gaining weight!
No, I don't think that's going to work. I mean, sure, if a woman dresses like that and doesn't get creepy attention, more power to her. But many of us have tried and tried and it doesn't help. There will always be men who will harass anything female. It doesn't matter if she's 12, if she's blossomed into a female shape she will get leers, stares, creepy talk, and worse.
It's time for the men to police themselves. If we don't want to dress in order to give men something to look at, that's our right. We've put up with enough.
Strong recipe for ending up alone - or with a low-quality horndog - is to handicap one's exterior. I suppose "nice guy" once was a mostly true term, going along with "good girl." But now nice guys are bitter and good girls don't seem to exist, either because few women are nice anymore or the nicer ones no longer are nice to look at. Hooray, everybody loses.
There's also a logical fallacy in the dress-down idea, because face is important and 99.9% of women won't wear burkas. If not wholly ugly, a woman who deliberately presents herself badly still will get some attention, maybe not much less than the classy woman will and probably of a worse quality.
Strong recipe for ending up alone - or with a low-quality horndog - is to handicap one's exterior.
A clue: These women have been traumatized by men already. At least for the present, they want to be left alone. That's why they dress the way they do. They are getting what they want, which is to be ignored and not looked at.
And who is to blame for that? The men who can't seem to control themselves. So you have a bunch of "lonely men" who wonder why all the girls are "ugly." It's a situation that men have created. Men, police yourselves.
You keep on wanting women to "fix" it, well, they've been subject to horrible treatment starting at a young age, thanks to men's inability to "fix" it.
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There's also a logical fallacy in the dress-down idea, because face is important and 99.9% of women won't wear burkas. If not wholly ugly, a woman who deliberately presents herself badly still will get some attention, maybe not much less than the classy woman will and probably of a worse quality.
Maybe she'll find some diamond in the rough, or a guy who can manage to not behave like an ape. Or, she can decide at what point she wants to dress to get more attention—when she's ready. But not to accommodate "lonely men" who complain and complain about ugly women, yet do nothing to fix their own situation and continually claim that women carry all the blame. And make veiled threats about how if women don't "fix it," that more men will turn to violence. Wow, way to influence women to be even less trustful of these men!
ETA:
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I suppose "nice guy" once was a mostly true term, going along with "good girl." But now nice guys are bitter and good girls don't seem to exist, either because few women are nice anymore or the nicer ones no longer are nice to look at. Hooray, everybody loses.
The bolded statement is very revealing of how you think.
So, there are no "nice girls" because they won't make themselves pretty for you? You do understand that a lot of these girls were harassed by men at a very young age, terrified, and reacted in the only way they knew how to get the abuse to stop. Nobody is doing anything—heaven knows you don't think the men will do anything—all you can do is get all pouty and repeat that we can't have the guys lose their eye candy! I mean, what other good are these girls, right? Because they are trying to protect themselves from leers, gropes, creeps, you are angry with them and feel that they owe you something. Well, what have you done for them? What do you offer? Complaints? Anger? Demands? Right.
I think there are still nice people, both women and men. A decent man might understand why a woman is hiding under her clothes, might understand why she is shy and withdrawn, but a jerk will only think of what he wants, and he wants eye candy and these women won't give that to him! And they're making themselves "ugly" and boo hoo, that's bad for him!
You reap what you sow, and even if you never harassed a young girl, your complete lack of empathy for what these women go through, and why they go through it, makes you not a nice guy.
Last edited by elvira310; 07-01-2014 at 05:53 AM..
I can't dispute much of that, but it ignores my point that women overgeneralize about men's evil (e.g., anyone on a men's site hates women) and its conclusion is defeatist and actually increases male desperation (concentrating more attention on a shrinking percentage of good-looking women). I tentatively accept defeat re convincing creepy/desperate men to not bother women (any ideas?), but I believe there's a style women (post-college anyway) can have that looks attractive but discourages thirsty men. I might as well call it young married style. Elegant hair, some jewelry, heels, clothes that show some shape but little skin and are quite different from what most teens wear. Men who just want to get some fast are unlikely to approach women like that.
I wear khakis and similar from Banana Republic and t-shirts up to the neck. I haven’t worn anything shorter than mid-calf capris in my neighborhood in years. I don’t look anything like the next Coco Austin, and it would definitely call more attention if I ran around in suits, yet at least 10% of the slugs in my neighborhood seem to assume that I am (averages out to at least one per week and possibly day. Once I got it 3 times in 3 blocks). My friend finally started paying attention to the oglers in his neighborhood, and said women got the same toes-up, back-of-head stare-and-smirk from the same guy hanging out in front of the corner store, up to and including what my friend characterized as a frankly obese and most likely prepubescent schoolgirl in a school uniform. Try again.
I’ve also got a great idea for men instead of “giving up”: take themselves into their neighborhoods where men congregate on the street and start giving them speeches about how women don’t enjoy being objectified and such behavior isn’t OK.
Wait, you say that will never happen? Why, because a man is likely to take offense at this talk and beat the do-gooder up? No surprise… which brings us back to men’s “women, why don’t you change your behaviors, since we all know we “can’t” change the men? Never mind you look like exactly what you are, a good girl/child. Clearly you must deserve this, because you secretly look like a goer with "Gangstas, please apply here for your next gun moll" tattooed to your forehead in invisible ink.”
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