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Your theory is that God "Set them up," and that they did not choose to disobey him... right? Well.. What would have happened if they did not eat from the fruit of the tree?
I'm not sure you're making sense.
No, my interpretation, based on the facts at hand, is that Adam and Eve couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong.
Quote:
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Until that point -- until they had actually eaten from the tree -- they did not understand the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. God put the tree in front of them, knowing that such was the case, and effectively punished them for learning.
As for what would have happened if they hadn't eaten...well, logically, they would have continued to live happily, blissfully ignorant of evil, sin, violence, and so forth. What they faced, based on the Biblical evidence, is a test that was pretty much rigged against them.
They don't know about 'good' or 'evil'; to know about 'good' or 'evil' they would have to eat from the tree; since they didn't know that the Serpent was evil and trying to deceive them, they ate from the Tree and learned of good and evil, and were kicked out of the Garden for failing a test that was engineered to be impossible to win.
Ergo, since God is supposed to be an all-knowing being, he is either incompetent, willfully cruel, or unable to foresee the results of his own actions.
No, my interpretation, based on the facts at hand, is that Adam and Eve couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong.
Until that point -- until they had actually eaten from the tree -- they did not understand the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. God put the tree in front of them, knowing that such was the case, and effectively punished them for learning.
As for what would have happened if they hadn't eaten...well, logically, they would have continued to live happily, blissfully ignorant of evil, sin, violence, and so forth. What they faced, based on the Biblical evidence, is a test that was pretty much rigged against them.
They don't know about 'good' or 'evil'; to know about 'good' or 'evil' they would have to eat from the tree; since they didn't know that the Serpent was evil and trying to deceive them, they ate from the Tree and learned of good and evil, and were kicked out of the Garden for failing a test that was engineered to be impossible to win.
Spot on.
And any being that would do something like that is one petty, heartless, cruel SOB...especially if it were an omniscient being who knew what would happen before he/she/it did it. I mean, what would be the point(?), except for deriving some sort of pleasure at inflicting this torture on his [imperfect] creations who hadn't the faculties to understand, and then telling them that it was all *their* fault.
A being that would do something like that deserves to be crushed out of existence, not venerated and worshiped. A being like that is disgusting, purely disgusting. The concept is slightly worse than putting a tasty treat in front of an untrained puppy, and then ripping its legs off when it eats the treat. Somebody like that gets chucked in a prison cell these days.
No, my interpretation, based on the facts at hand, is that Adam and Eve couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong.
Until that point -- until they had actually eaten from the tree -- they did not understand the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. God put the tree in front of them, knowing that such was the case, and effectively punished them for learning.
As for what would have happened if they hadn't eaten...well, logically, they would have continued to live happily, blissfully ignorant of evil, sin, violence, and so forth. What they faced, based on the Biblical evidence, is a test that was pretty much rigged against them.
They don't know about 'good' or 'evil'; to know about 'good' or 'evil' they would have to eat from the tree; since they didn't know that the Serpent was evil and trying to deceive them, they ate from the Tree and learned of good and evil, and were kicked out of the Garden for failing a test that was engineered to be impossible to win.
Ergo, since God is supposed to be an all-knowing being, he is either incompetent, willfully cruel, or unable to foresee the results of his own actions.
Really? Like what? And for how long will those things remain "wonderful"?
If that were actually true, then he could have just killed that damned snake in the garden. The story says that the snake conned them into eating the fruit that gave them the ability to "become as gods, knowing good and evil". If he *truly* wanted them to 'know only good', he could have nipped it in the bud right then and there. But if you believe the story, then that didn't happen, so your statement is false.
Instead, the story says that he allowed his imperfect creatures, who lacked the power to discern 'evil', to be persuaded by an 'evil' being which was *also* his creation. Do you see the logic fail here?
So (according to the story) we have thousands of years of suffering, pestilence, death and destruction (much of it wrought by his own hand), because he let his imperfect creatures who didn't know 'evil' learn of 'evil'.
And now you say he wants them to "know only good". Sorry, doesn't stand up to the tests of credibility and logic, and it is shown to be patently untrue.
Every created being--angel or mortal was given free will. The angel being who got jealous and wanted worship came to be known as satan and devil. By mortals listening to that being, they chose this system for all. God told them--you will die if you eat of that tree--they should have listened.
For one satans lie was a direct challenge to Gods universal sovereignty in front of all creation. He could have killed the 3 rebels on the spot--no one ever born would have been. In fact being born is a very rare happening. If just one person along the line died--the whole line is cut off for all time in this system. So all are very fortunate to get life to start with.
Instead, God knew all had the right to be born of that original seed. So once and for all time, it is being proven, who is correct--God or satan. One with a 10 IQ knows God is correct--knowing bad is no good for mortals. It brought murder, hatred, greed, spouses cheating on each other, fear, pain, death, cancer, aids, std' etc,etc,etc--Gods kingdom will cure all of those things. One must live now to do Gods will and prove satan wrong.
No, my interpretation, based on the facts at hand, is that Adam and Eve couldn't know that what they were doing was wrong.
Until that point -- until they had actually eaten from the tree -- they did not understand the concepts of 'good' and 'evil'. God put the tree in front of them, knowing that such was the case, and effectively punished them for learning.
As for what would have happened if they hadn't eaten...well, logically, they would have continued to live happily, blissfully ignorant of evil, sin, violence, and so forth. What they faced, based on the Biblical evidence, is a test that was pretty much rigged against them.
They don't know about 'good' or 'evil'; to know about 'good' or 'evil' they would have to eat from the tree; since they didn't know that the Serpent was evil and trying to deceive them, they ate from the Tree and learned of good and evil, and were kicked out of the Garden for failing a test that was engineered to be impossible to win.
Ergo, since God is supposed to be an all-knowing being, he is either incompetent, willfully cruel, or unable to foresee the results of his own actions.
What ! How could they Not know what they were doing was Not wrong.
Didn't God educate them according to Genesis 2:17 ? ______
Isn't it plain or clear that the bad/evil was: death - Genesis 2:17; 3:2-3
They absolutely had to know what what death was. They could observe bugs and plants having an end to life.
Adam deliberately ate, Eve was deceived. What does 1st Timothy 2:14 say ?
Eve is Not blamed for the bad/evil death upon us, notice who is according to Romans 5:12
If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and he told you come over any time and have as much fruit as you want except from his one particular tree, would you consider your neighbor as being ungenerous or impossible for you ? ___
What ! How could they Not know what they were doing was Not wrong.
Didn't God educate them according to Genesis 2:17 ? ______
Isn't it plain or clear that the bad/evil was: death - Genesis 2:17; 3:2-3
They absolutely had to know what what death was. They could observe bugs and plants having an end to life.
Adam deliberately ate, Eve was deceived. What does 1st Timothy 2:14 say ?
Eve is Not blamed for the bad/evil death upon us, notice who is according to Romans 5:12
If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and he told you come over any time and have as much fruit as you want except from his one particular tree, would you consider your neighbor as being ungenerous or impossible for you ? ___
You bible godling is a sadistic monster who cruelly created Adam and Eve solely so he could set them up to fail and have their descendants to torture whimsically for all eternity.
And you fundies can try to smother it with lipstick but it's still a pig.
What ! How could they Not know what they were doing was Not wrong.
Didn't God educate them according to Genesis 2:17 ? ______
They didn't have the knowledge of 'good' and 'evil' until they ate from the Tree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
Isn't it plain or clear that the bad/evil was: death - Genesis 2:17; 3:2-3
Not at all. God never defines death as 'bad' or 'evil'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
They absolutely had to know what what death was. They could observe bugs and plants having an end to life.
Could they? Show me where God demonstrates 'death' to Adam and Eve, or indicates that the bugs and plants in the garden had any kind of 'lifespan'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
Adam deliberately ate, Eve was deceived. What does 1st Timothy 2:14 say ?
Eve is Not blamed for the bad/evil death upon us, notice who is according to Romans 5:12
I never said that Eve was to blame. I didn't even place the blame on the Serpent. All I said was that Adam and Eve were punished, despite being unaware that they were doing wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4
If you had a generous neighbor who had many fruit trees and he told you come over any time and have as much fruit as you want except from his one particular tree, would you consider your neighbor as being ungenerous or impossible for you ? ___
That's not relevant to the discussion, as I am neither Adam, nor Eve; that being said, I'll address the points you raised:
For all intents and purposes, Adam and Eve can be considered to be 'intellectually disabled'; they don't know that what they're doing is wrong. If a neighborhood bully convinced an intellectually disabled person to pick fruit from a tree that the local farmer designated 'off-limits', the bully is at fault for taking advantage of a vulnerable person.
Is it fair to punish the victim for being a victim?
Well, if you think it through, that means God set Adam and Eve up:
1) God creates the tree, placing it in the Garden.
2) God creates Adam and Eve, placing them in the Garden; he tells them 'DO NOT TOUCH'.
3) Adam and Eve (since they do not yet know 'good and evil') are tempted by the serpent to eat from the tree.
4) God expels them from the Garden for eating from the Tree when they literally 'don't know any better'.
From those events (and considering that God is all-knowing and would be fully aware that Adam and Eve would eat the apple), we can draw several possible conclusions:
1) God knew that the serpent would tempt A&E and that they would disobey, did nothing to prevent it, and kicked them out when they exercised their (literally) God-given free will. Thus, God is cruel and arbitrary.
2) God placed the tree intentionally, knowing the events that would follow, and kicked A&E out 'because he could' instead of fixing the situation. Thus, God was apathetic towards A&E and didn't really care about their well-being in the first place.
3) God didn't know that Adam and Eve would eat the apple (which seems to be the accepted 'theme' of the Garden story), so he kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden to cover up his mistake. Thus, God is not, in fact, all-knowing; rather, He is capricious, mean-spirited and easily embarrassed.
god makes wise plan and by his power he perform them, is anything to hard for him?
in those days, jerusalem shall be rescued, the lord who saved us is a descendant of david. priests from the tribe of levi will offer burnt offerings and pleople will sing as they bring thankofferings to the temple of the lord.
god makes wise plan and by his power he perform them, is anything to hard for him?
That's the old 'god and the big rock' argument. You can examine the details of the paradox here.
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