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Old 08-20-2015, 12:30 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,707 posts, read 70,554,766 times
Reputation: 76653

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
In fact Han Chinese living in minority regions all tend to have the same patterns as minorities.
But most Han Chinese do not live close to minorities.
What do you mean, "the same patterns"? They suddenly acquire a similar genetic signature? That makes no sense, except where intermarriage results.
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:02 PM
bg7
 
7,697 posts, read 8,168,803 times
Reputation: 15093
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
too much propaganda, too little substance.

The Chinese government did far more to improve the living standards of Tibetans than US/Canada did to their aboriginals. Subjugated citizens, do you even know those citizens were slaves before China took over? You probably had no idea. You like most free-Tibet westerns think Tibet was some sort of paradise before the Chinese "invaded", don't you?

What thousand year old monasteries? People like you don't know about Tibet's history. Let me ask you, did you know prior to 1950, Tibet was essentially a slave economy, where 2% of the monks ruled 98% of the serfs who didn't have any basic human rights? They hardly had enough to feed themselves and the masters could pretty much do anything they wanted to them. It is really not so different from the black slaves before the American civil war.

Yes, the privileged monks were definitely worse off after China's administration, because they lost so much of their properties, including slaves and privileges, and the whole religious ruling structure fell apart, if by that you say Tibet lost much of its "identity" or "culture", well that's something worth celebrating. but let's not be stupid enough the deny the fact most of average Tibetans are far better off today than in the 1940s. They have access to free education, basic healthcare, have highways and trains that link them to the rest of the world (before that Tibet is stuck in the middle of the plateau and it is very difficult of even getting out).

You have no idea why miserable lives average Tibetans lived before the evil China occupied it and abolished slavery gradually and gave them some dignity.

"Yep, I am a left wing westerner, I love Tibet! I hate evil Communist China! Tibet should be free! Keep repeating that slogan." It is so ignorant and laughable. I am sure 3 million Tibetans just can't wait to becoming slaves of the Lamas, monks and nuns again.

Tibet is part of China, and will remain so for a long time. Just deal with it.
You're so funny with the "you westerners" attitude as if you have the first clue about who I am. And your patronizing "so much better since the Chinese took over" platitudes have been the paen of all condescending, self-justifying imperial powers since the British "improved" and forced their rule worldwide. Obviously still fooling you ...but gladly not most people in 2015 who know the laughable fraudulence of holding imperial paternalism above the a peoples' own self-determination (other than the jingoists). The pomposity and self-regard of the imperial powers and their apologists has no shame. And the "oh but its not as bad as what happened too..." Not strong on the rhetoric eh?!

Self-immolating Monks are a nice by-product of Chinese rule wouldn't you say?


Perhaps the selfless Chinese could invade Papua New Guinea and enforce their subjective improvements on the "primitive" cultures there also. After pouring concrete on every reef between South China and Port Moresby to get there first of course.

Go take a hike with your manifest destiny map.
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:49 PM
 
1,424 posts, read 735,401 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What do you mean, "the same patterns"? They suddenly acquire a similar genetic signature? That makes no sense, except where intermarriage results.
Yes, I meant genetic makeups.

Many Han Chinese were converted minorities. There has been intermarriage too.

In addition, Sino-Tibetan tribes diverged only 7000 years ago.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:05 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,682 posts, read 8,486,668 times
Reputation: 7034
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
too much propaganda, too little substance.

The Chinese government did far more to improve the living standards of Tibetans than US/Canada did to their aboriginals. Subjugated citizens, do you even know those citizens were slaves before China took over? You probably had no idea. You like most free-Tibet westerns think Tibet was some sort of paradise before the Chinese "invaded", don't you?

What thousand year old monasteries? People like you don't know about Tibet's history. Let me ask you, did you know prior to 1950, Tibet was essentially a slave economy, where 2% of the monks ruled 98% of the serfs who didn't have any basic human rights? They hardly had enough to feed themselves and the masters could pretty much do anything they wanted to them. It is really not so different from the black slaves before the American civil war.

Yes, the privileged monks were definitely worse off after China's administration, because they lost so much of their properties, including slaves and privileges, and the whole religious ruling structure fell apart, if by that you say Tibet lost much of its "identity" or "culture", well that's something worth celebrating. but let's not be stupid enough the deny the fact most of average Tibetans are far better off today than in the 1940s. They have access to free education, basic healthcare, have highways and trains that link them to the rest of the world (before that Tibet is stuck in the middle of the plateau and it is very difficult of even getting out).

You have no idea why miserable lives average Tibetans lived before the evil China occupied it and abolished slavery gradually and gave them some dignity.

"Yep, I am a left wing westerner, I love Tibet! I hate evil Communist China! Tibet should be free! Keep repeating that slogan." It is so ignorant and laughable. I am sure 3 million Tibetans just can't wait to becoming slaves of the Lamas, monks and nuns again.

Tibet is part of China, and will remain so for a long time. Just deal with it.
No, nobody here is saying that Tibet cannot be part of China. What we are saying is that the people of Tibet have to make that choice themselves whether or not they wish to be part of China. It's called self determination.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:07 PM
 
1,189 posts, read 1,809,840 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Who says different people can't be part of the same country? Where is your logic?

France, Spain, Belgium, the UK not to mention Canada, the US all have different people under the same roof. Malaysia? Singapore? Should they all be dismembered and separated?

Should Guadeloupe and French Guiana belong to France? They are obviously different!

Country is just a political entity. Nothing more than that. Different US states even have different laws.

I think the Chinese government should give Tibet a referendum about seceding. When it fails by a landslide, everyone will shut up. And if by chance it does pass, China loses very little, but good luck with those Tibetans' life.
Countries with homogenous populations tend to have less crime, strife and tend to have better government efficiency.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:10 PM
 
1,189 posts, read 1,809,840 times
Reputation: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Who says different people can't be part of the same country? Where is your logic?

France, Spain, Belgium, the UK not to mention Canada, the US all have different people under the same roof. Malaysia? Singapore? Should they all be dismembered and separated?

Should Guadeloupe and French Guiana belong to France? They are obviously different!

Country is just a political entity. Nothing more than that. Different US states even have different laws.

I think the Chinese government should give Tibet a referendum about seceding. When it fails by a landslide, everyone will shut up. And if by chance it does pass, China loses very little, but good luck with those Tibetans' life.
Good luck with a referendum in a country with a one party system. Tibet deserves independence because its government treats them like hostiles and favors han chinese over tibetans in all situations. Unless China can actually try to make their lives better and treat them as equals
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:13 PM
 
4,685 posts, read 3,614,137 times
Reputation: 7382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The whole monastic gig in Tibetan culture is a double-edged, or multi-edged sword. One reason Buddhism was suppressed and destroyed by some of the early kings of Tibet was that they were extremely expensive to maintain; all those non-productive adults had to be supported with heavy taxation on the rest of the population. Also, people were fond of their pre-Buddhist religion, and didn't appreciate having that repressed by a new, imported religion.

Furthermore, children were, and still are, allowed to live in the monasteries. Little boys sharing quarters with supposedly celibate adults does not work out well for the boys. You can see cases of unresolved childhood post-traumatic stress among adults in Tibetan communities in exile today, as a result of routine rape they suffered in the monasteries. And the effect of tantric Buddhism on many of Tibet's women (and now the West's women) has been similarly devastating.

Tibetan Buddhism was (still is) far, very far, from humane, and compassion-driven. Though I think some of the monasteries should be preserved simply as works of art, and examples of cultural and artistic heritage, fwiw. Reforms desperately need to be introduced to Tibetan Buddhism, and Asian Buddhism in general.
But, but but, you mean Tibetan Buddhism is not Shangri-la and nirvana and holy compassion and hipster heaven all wrapped in one??????? Those peace loving monks are rapists????? NO!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:14 PM
 
4,685 posts, read 3,614,137 times
Reputation: 7382
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
No, nobody here is saying that Tibet cannot be part of China. What we are saying is that the people of Tibet have to make that choice themselves whether or not they wish to be part of China. It's called self determination.
Why? People in Jiangsu don't not have that right, so why should the people in Tibet? China is a unitary state, not a federation or a confederation.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:15 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,707 posts, read 70,554,766 times
Reputation: 76653
Quote:
Originally Posted by yueng-ling View Post
Yes, I meant genetic makeups.

Many Han Chinese were converted minorities. There has been intermarriage too.

In addition, Sino-Tibetan tribes diverged only 7000 years ago.
That doesn't mean that Han have D and/or R admixture. Han who intermarried with Tibetans or Uighurs would acquire some R. Or if their ancestors intermarried with either of those, or with "Westerners" (Tocharians). . But Han coming from east China wouldn't have the same genetic makeup as Tibetans.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:17 PM
 
4,685 posts, read 3,614,137 times
Reputation: 7382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amercity View Post
Good luck with a referendum in a country with a one party system. Tibet deserves independence because its government treats them like hostiles and favors han chinese over tibetans in all situations. Unless China can actually try to make their lives better and treat them as equals
And you know this as cold fact because.....the Students For A Free Tibet told you? LOL ROF!!!!
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