Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You better believe every knee will bend at the day of judgment, when it is clear for all to see that God actually existed. For many, however, the bending of the knee will not save them from the judgment. Saying that every knee will bend does not mean everyone will be forced into salvation.
Yes, the title of Jesus Christ is 'saviour', just like Barak Obama's title is 'president'. I did not vote for Obama, but he is still the president whether I like it or not. Jesus is only saviour in the universe, whether people accept it or reject it. Him having that title does not mean Jesus will force everyone into salvation. Those who reject it, will be doomed to eternal destruction.
You offer the same cherrypicked universalist talking points which have been explained here over and over. How anyone can cling to two verses which can be understood in many ways, while disregarding 200 crystal clear verses saying the exact opposite is beyond me, but then again wanton disregard of the scriptures has always been the telltale sign of a false teaching.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It does not get any clearer than that.
Revelation 21 "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Please read my response in post #46.
(have you ever been cowardly? Why do you think muderers are thrown in the "lake" with the timid?)
Saying that every knee will bend does not mean everyone will be forced into salvation.
Finn, the concept of salvation does not involve being "forced" or not "forced".
If someone falls unconscious into a pool, sinks to the bottom, and a lifeguard pulls him out, did the lifeguard "force" him to be saved?
If my baby girl is about to walk over the edge of the stairs, and I catch her at the last moment, did I "force" her to be saved?
That is literally what Christ is doing. He is saving us. We are in as much peril as someone unconscious in a swimming pool or as a toddler about to fall down the stairs. We can do nothing to save ourselves.
In the context of Phil 2 and Rom 14, one must revert to Isaiah 45 in which Paul was drawing from.
It is the salvation and resurrection of Israel alone.
Paul says in the next verse of Romans:
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
(have you ever been cowardly? Why do you think muderers are thrown in the "lake" with the timid?)
I read your post.
Coward in the Bible is not a reference to a timid or shy personality, it means 'spiritless' and 'godless'. All the words in Revelation 21 describe the same thing: the unbeliever. If God did not spare his own angels when they rejected Him, why should be spare us?
2 peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority
Finn, the concept of salvation does not involve being "forced" or not "forced".
If someone falls unconscious into a pool, sinks to the bottom, and a lifeguard pulls him out, did the lifeguard "force" him to be saved?
If my baby girl is about to walk over the edge of the stairs, and I catch her at the last moment, did I "force" her to be saved?
That is literally what Christ is doing. He is saving us. We are in as much peril as someone unconscious in a swimming pool or as a toddler about to fall down the stairs. We can do nothing to save ourselves.
The UR version is about forcing, because people have been offered salvation and they rejected it. If you reject salvation, Christ will not force it upon you. It is not complicated. God did not force his angels back to his ranks either after they rebelled, but he let them go. Read 2 Peter which I just quoted.
Coward in the Bible is not a reference to a timid or shy personality, it means 'spiritless' and 'godless'. All the words in Revelation 21 describe the same thing: the unbeliever. If God did not spare his own angels when they rejected Him, why should be spare us?
2 peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority
You may have read it, but you did not understand it. God made creation in futility.
And, yes, God judges us. That is not my point. My point is that tradition brought the old pagan justice system into it's teachings. God is not a pagan God and he judges with mercy and love, always. Destroying and rebuilding people (for a PURPOSE) is what he does. After he destroys, he makes all things new. It's all going according to plan.
Peter was cowardly, and he was unconverted before Jesus died, and he had to go through the fire.
Don't you know that saints shall judge the world? Don't you know that saints shall judge angels?
Love your enemies.
Both Jesus and Stephen asked their Father to forgive their tormentors when they were being stoned and crucified. Why? And, could you do this? If you LOVE like God loves, you will be just like your father. This is scripture.
Both Jesus and Stephen asked their Father to forgive their tormentors when they were being stoned and crucified. Why? And, could you do this? If you LOVE like God loves, you will be just like your father. This is scripture.
I quoted you scripture about judgment and what happens to unbelievers. That is scripture. You are trying to change the subject. My love, or your love will not save your neighbor because only Christ can save. Loving your neighbor is an instruction to Christians on how to live their lives, and it has nothing to do with how God will judge people other than you and me.
I quoted you scripture about judgment and what happens to unbelievers. That is scripture. You are trying to change the subject. My love, or your love will not save your neighbor because only Christ can save. Loving your neighbor is an instruction to Christians on how to live their lives, and it has nothing to do with how God will judge people other than you and me.
Do you think God will grant Jesus and Stephen's request? Do you understand why creation was made in futility?
Love conquers all.
When all is said and done, there will be no darkness, no death, and no rebellion anywhere in God's universe. That darkness was allowed to tempt the most innocent creatures ever to exist. For a purpose. Free will is a deception. You and I did not have the free will to be born. We did not have the free will to be born in this country or that country (North Koreans don't have any idea what scripture says). We didn't have the free will to pick the perfect parents before we were born so we could understand what love was, and many of us CANNOT understand what those Bible verses that talk about a father's love means, and many of us twist God's love into that of man's version, based on what we know and have experienced on this planet.
Many here will never understand love until after they die. This is a fact.
It is the GOODNESS of God that leads to repentance. Where do you think this will occur?
(God said he was RECONCILING things in the heavens. What in the heavens needs reconciling? And how and why is he using humanity for this purpose?)
Last edited by herefornow; 10-14-2010 at 04:20 PM..
The UR version is about forcing, because people have been offered salvation and they rejected it. If you reject salvation, Christ will not force it upon you. It is not complicated. God did not force his angels back to his ranks either after they rebelled, but he let them go. Read 2 Peter which I just quoted.
The only thing complicated will be the commentary that explains
John 6:44 to mean something other than what is plain in the definition of the words.
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The problem is that God declaring in 1 Timothy 2:4 that he will save all mankind is not about the type of force you want to say that it is.
The word translated to draw is indeed a spiritual force.
G1670 helkuo hel-koo'-o
or helko hel'-ko;
probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.
Then we have Proverbs 16:9
Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
H3559 kuwn koon
a primitive root;
properly, to be erect (i.e. stand perpendicular); hence (causatively) to set up,
in a great variety of applications, whether literal (establish, fix, prepare,
apply), or figurative (appoint, render sure, proper or prosperous):--certain(-ty),
confirm, direct, faithfulness, fashion, fasten, firm, be fitted, be fixed, frame,
be meet, ordain, order, perfect, (make) preparation, prepare (self), provide,
make provision, (be, make) ready, right, set (aright, fast, forth), be stable,
(e-)stablish, stand, tarry, X very deed.
You really need to research your paradigm further, as it appears you haven't, based on this statement alone. Origen developed his doctrine from the various thoughts Clement of Alexandria entertained, but never was fully convinced of. CA was a pagan, brought up in hellenisitc philosophy, which is rooted in Stoic and Gnostic idealogies.
When i asked you what you were talking about i was asking you to be more specific about what post you were referring to that i had made in this thread.
I see now you were not referring to anything that i had posted in this thread when you posted that remark to me, but were referring to my "theology" in general.
I am confident in my studies, as i study every day and have been studying for decades. I am also confident that were you and I to debate in an open forum in front of a neutral counsel of judges, or in debate class, that i could completely annihilate your arguments with scripture alone, even more so if we were allowed to draw from extra biblical sources.
As far as Clement of Alexandria is concerned, his having been a pagan and then converted to Christianity is neither here nor there, as most of the early church fathers, including Tertullian and Augustine were both Pagans and both referred to Plato and his works heavily and often.
Quote:
Concerning Tertullian ...
While Athenagoras launched publicly the immortal soul, a younger contemporary, Tertullian of Carthage (A.D. 160-240), pursued and amplified it. He was the first of the church fathers to write in Latin, soon to be the official language of the medieval church. Prior to his conversion at age of 40, Tertullian received a Greco-Roman education in Rome.
According to Froom, "it was Tertullian who first affirmed that torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-exist with the happiness of the saved." (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 950.)
Tertullian's propositions needed other modifications: "He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to interpret 'death' as eternal misery and 'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish. 'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead" (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 951).
Without hesitation, Tertullian referred directly to Plato in his writings. Plato's primary theme, "every soul is immortal," became Tertullian's unwavering platform (Tertullian, On the Resurrection, chap.3, quoted in ANF, vol.3, p. 547).
These church fathers followed suit by including Tertullian's propositions in their public preaching and writing: Minucius Felix, Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan, John Chryosostom and Jerome (translator of the Bible into the Latin Vulgate).
Augustine's spiritual conversion had been preceded by an intellectual one. Dissatisfied with the doctrinal vanity of Manichaeism, he abandoned the sect. After a brief period in the Skeptic Academy, he had given himself to the study of Neo-Platonism, in which he grasped the idea of the spirituality of God and the concept of evil as the privation of good. Thus his baptism signalized the complete and absolute conversion of Augustine to Christianity.
...
Neo-Platonic philosophy was the field of exercise for the mind of Augustine previous to his conversion, and it was the same philosophy which prepared him for conversion. Even after his conversion, he remained a Platonist, and for the solution of major problems he appealed to the Platonic concept. But such adherence does not signify merely simple acceptance; rather, it involves interpretation and a transformation of the very principles of Platonism within the limits of the needs of Christian thought. In this work of adapting ancient thought to Christianity, Augustine precedes Thomas Aquinas, for just as Aquinas undertook to lay down the thought of Aristotle as the rational basis of religion, so Augustine did the same with the teaching of Plato and Platonism.
I prefer Socrates to Plato any day of the week, as the teachings of Socrates are far more in line with the teachings of Christ and the apostles.
Only a moron or otherwise someone who is illiterate and or uneducated would imagine that Christianity developed in a vacuum and that there were no external influences on the church fathers and even on the teachings of the apostles and on the teachings of Christ himself ... As Judaism had become itself saturated by the teachings of Hellenism and the mystery traditions of the Persians by that time ...
That is not to say that Christ or the apostles where themselves Platonist or subscribed to any other system of thought. But it was obviously necessary for them to incorporate various alternative systems of thought into their teachings in order to communicate certain spiritual concepts to the minds of the masses who were themselves subscribers to the very same alternative systems of thought.
A perfect example of this is when Paul was debating with the stoics, and at that time made specific reference to the pagan poets and then quoted them when he said that we are all the offspring of God(Act 17:28).
Your attempt to discredit Universal Reconciliation by discrediting Clement of Alexandra for having been influenced in any way by Stoicism or Hellenism or even Gnosticism falls flat, and if you studied all the church fathers and all the various developments of the Catholic church after Constantine declared Christianity the state religion of Rome you would recognize that Paganism in all its various forms infiltrated and overran the Christian community almost completely.
Finding and bringing to light similarities between divergent systems of thought or religions is not a bad thing. The study of philosophical and religious syncretism throughout history is actually very important in order to understand the development of human thought throughout the ages. It is only when one seeks to interpolate alien concepts into a system of thought or religion in order to subvert that system and make it teach what one desires it to teach in order to accomplish ones own agenda that it becomes dishonest.
Peace ...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
