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The only thing complicated will be the commentary that explains
John 6:44 to mean something other than what is plain in the definition of the words.
Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The problem is that God declaring in 1 Timothy 2:4 that he will save all mankind is not about the type of force you want to say that it is.
The word translated to draw is indeed a spiritual force.
G1670 helkuo hel-koo'-o
or helko hel'-ko;
probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. Compare
G1667.
Then we have Proverbs 16:9
Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
H3559 kuwn koon
a primitive root;
properly, to be erect (i.e. stand perpendicular); hence (causatively) to set up,
in a great variety of applications, whether literal (establish, fix, prepare,
apply), or figurative (appoint, render sure, proper or prosperous):--certain(-ty),
confirm, direct, faithfulness, fashion, fasten, firm, be fitted, be fixed, frame,
be meet, ordain, order, perfect, (make) preparation, prepare (self), provide,
make provision, (be, make) ready, right, set (aright, fast, forth), be stable,
(e-)stablish, stand, tarry, X very deed.
The concept of force is entirely scriptural.
I take it that everyone you have ever known have been dragged to Christ. I know many who have not.
John 6 continues: Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
Note: He who believes has everlasting life and everyone who listens comes to Him. There are those who do not listen, and there are those who do not believe. Those who do not listen or believe will not be dragged anywhere but hell.
and John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Again, whoever believes will not perish. Plain and simple: those who will not believe will perish. It is repeated over, and over, and over. It is there 200 times. How can you ignore it?
The UR version is about forcing, because people have been offered salvation and they rejected it.
Salvation (UR or otherwise) has nothing to do with "forcing". Lets look at the dictionary definition of salvation. From thefreedictionary.com:
Salvation
1. a. Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil. b. A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance. 2. Christianitya. Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption. b. The agent or means that brings about such deliverance.
You don't "force" someone to be saved. You just save them. That is what a lifeguard does. That is what Jesus does. The definition even has the Christian meaning in there. Notice it is not about "forcing" or "not forcing". It is about preservation and deliverance. It is about healing.
Jesus delivers people from their sins. Jesus heals.
Jesus takes away the sin of the world. That is deliverance for all people.
Here is the problem. You think you chose to be saved instead of acknowledging that Jesus saved you. And therefore you come to the incorrect conclusion that if Jesus saves everyone, He must be "forcing them" - as if God cannot bring a person to Jesus in the same way He brought you to Jesus.
Salvation (UR or otherwise) has nothing to do with "forcing". Lets look at the dictionary definition of salvation. From thefreedictionary.com:
Salvation 1. a. Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil. b. A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance. 2. Christianitya. Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption. b. The agent or means that brings about such deliverance.
You don't "force" someone to be saved. You just save them. That is what a lifeguard does. That is what Jesus does. The definition even has the Christian meaning in there. Notice it is not about "forcing" or "not forcing". It is about preservation and deliverance. It is about healing.
Jesus delivers people from their sins. Jesus heals.
Jesus takes away the sin of the world. That is deliverance for all people.
Here is the problem. You think you chose to be saved instead of acknowledging that Jesus saved you. And therefore you come to the incorrect conclusion that if Jesus saves everyone, He must be "forcing them" - as if God cannot bring a person to Jesus in the same way He brought you to Jesus.
Salvation is a complete work of God, right?
Yes, Jesus saves those who believe in Him. There are those who believe and are saved, and then there are those who reject Him and they will perish. It is crystal clear.
Enough of this repetition. Deny it if you must.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Yes, Jesus saves those who believe in Him. There are those who believe and are saved, and then there are those who reject Him and they will perish. It is crystal clear.
Enough of this repetition. Deny it if you must.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Finn, here is the question: why do people believe in Christ?
Answer: because God has granted them to believe.
So again we see salvation is a complete work of God (including the belief). Do you agree salvation is a complete work of God?
. Pehaps this rant of yours here merely exposes why you started the thread in the first place. Don't whine just because someone saw through you.
.
Why I started this thread: To see if UR folk would still be faithful to God if He did not line up with UR theology. That question has been answered. Nearly all would not, which I found surprising. I figured Christians would put God first and submit to His will. Ask Why with an attitude "Your will be done and not mine".
With that said, this thread has become yet anothe UR vs Orthodox theology discussion.
Yes, Jesus saves those who believe in Him. There are those who believe and are saved, and then there are those who reject Him and they will perish. It is crystal clear.
Enough of this repetition. Deny it if you must.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be. In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him, might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).
A.P. Adams
"For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing into Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
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I'm personally wondering if God will hold it against the Universalist enough to send him or her to hell. If he/she believed in Christ and lived a godly life I don't see why that should be. Yes, it might be an error, but what if it was an honest mistake?
Why I started this thread: To see if UR folk would still be faithful to God if He did not line up with UR theology. That question has been answered. Nearly all would not, which I found surprising.
With that said, this thread has become yet anothe UR vs Orthodox theology discussion.
Not my desire.
Pointless.
Mr5150, I'm not sure what you were expecting with your OP.
What do you mean by reject God? How can I reject something I believe exists? I believe in an all-powerful all-loving God. If God revealed himself to me plainly "in my face" so to speak, that would confirm my belief. If He also then told me most people are going to go to an eternal hell, and many people are already there and have been suffering for centuries - I would be completely shocked.
I would wonder why it had to be that way. I would ask why He effectively created an eternal torture chamber. I would ask why He could not save them? Is He not able to save them, or does He not want to save him? I would ask if He loves the souls who are in torment, and if His love is active and would do something to comfort the lost souls. I would ask if there was any hope. I would hope He would be able to answer me and explain it to me. But how would He wipe away my tears, when more tears would just replace them?
I would cry over their torment. I don't know how one could enjoy being in heaven knowing so many billions were suffering forever. Would God even be happy about this? Is God going to be upset forever over the lost souls that are burning endlessly? Why can we not go and preach to the souls in hell and try to save them? Why does God give up on us at our death? Why not keep trying to convert them? Is God going to make me forget their pain? Or is God going to make me somehow enjoy or at least be ambivalent to their pain?
Do you see the problem here with your OP Mr5150? Your OP raises so many other questions about God and about the nature of heaven, that it is not so simple to say whether you would "reject" God or not.
What picture of "god" are you trying to ask us if we would reject? The God who is not able to save all people? The God who doesn't want to save all people? The God who is sad forever because most of His creation rejects Him? The God who is happy forever because most of His creation is in torment?
None of these are the biblical picture of God.. so I reject any unbiblical picture of God because they are simply a crude caricature of the all-powerful all-loving God I know exists. He is mighty to save.
Your OP drives right to the heart of ET theology and all the contradictions it raises. I reject the false belief of eternal torment.
I'm personally wondering if God will hold it against the Universalist enough to send him or her to hell. If he/she believed in Christ and lived a godly life I don't see why that should be. Yes, it might be an error, but what if it was an honest mistake?
Does God send people to "hell"/"annihilation" for making an honest mistake, even when they believe Christ is their savior?
I hope you were implying that No, He would not do that.
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be. ."
Gee, can I have your autograph?
I always love it when some people think that 99% of Bible translations are wrong, but *they* have it right. Gee maybe the whole thing is wrong and no one is really saved.
Such is how modern day cults start out. Everyone has it wrong except for me.
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