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You better believe every knee will bend at the day of judgment, when it is clear for all to see that God actually existed. For many, however, the bending of the knee will not save them from the judgment. Saying that every knee will bend does not mean everyone will be forced into salvation.
Oh, this God before which they stand will be so horrible to them! Not the Savior that those who have experienced Him claim He is, but something far worse than any Hitler, Stalin, Malenkov, Mao, or even the devil. They were evil, but this God is a sadistic schizophrenic, now good, and then again matchless evil. He is the miraculous Torturer who wondrously makes us in His image and likeness. Sure, I've heard this non-Biblical and Satanic slander against Who God is and what He says He will do. Why is this not the Jesus I know? Look again at what He says:
[22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. [23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. [24] Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. [25] In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. (Isa 45:22-25 KJV)
It seems perfectly alright to you God will force them into the permanent chamber of horrors, into ceaseless torture for ever; but, far be it that He should save the lost or Himself die for the unGodly! To force them into hell but not interfere to get them into heaven?! I'm glad there are many who see this is a truly ILL doctrine that can only make twisted disciples of Molech.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Mr5150, I'm not sure what you were expecting with your OP.
What do you mean by reject God? How can I reject something I believe exists? I believe in an all-powerful all-loving God. If God revealed himself to me plainly "in my face" so to speak, that would confirm my belief. If He also then told me most people are going to go to an eternal hell, and many people are already there and have been suffering for centuries - I would be completely shocked.
I would wonder why it had to be that way. I would ask why He effectively created an eternal torture chamber. I would ask why He could not save them? Is He not able to save them, or does He not want to save him? I would ask if He loves the souls who are in torment, and if His love is active and would do something to comfort the lost souls. I would ask if there was any hope. I would hope He would be able to answer me and explain it to me. But how would He wipe away my tears, when more tears would just replace them?
I would cry over their torment. I don't know how one could enjoy being in heaven knowing so many billions were suffering forever. Would God even be happy about this? Is God going to be upset forever over the lost souls that are burning endlessly? Why can we not go and preach to the souls in hell and try to save them? Why does God give up on us at our death? Why not keep trying to convert them? Is God going to make me forget their pain? Or is God going to make me somehow enjoy or at least be ambivalent to their pain?
Do you see the problem here with your OP Mr5150? Your OP raises so many other questions about God and about the nature of heaven, that it is not so simple to say whether you would "reject" God or not.
What picture of "god" are you trying to ask us if we would reject? The God who is not able to save all people? The God who doesn't want to save all people? The God who is sad forever because most of His creation rejects Him? The God who is happy forever because most of His creation is in torment?
None of these are the biblical picture of God.. so I reject any unbiblical picture of God because they are simply a crude caricature of the all-powerful all-loving God I know exists. He is mighty to save.
Your OP drives right to the heart of ET theology and all the contradictions it raises. I reject the false belief of eternal torment.
I guess what used to upset me when reading the Bible is like, God loves you, but once you cross the line, you immediately become his worst enemy. I don't know, such an us vs them mentality. Tbh sometimes I find the OT more merciful, because God gives people second and third chances but they are too wicked to repent. More understandable. And no eternal hellfire. Whereas the common understanding of the NT is it's easy to sin, hard to get into heaven, you've only got one chance and if you mess it up then you're eternally stuffed.
Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be. In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him, might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).
A.P. Adams
"For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing into Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."
Another key phrase in the popular translations which is mistranslated in that verse is the phrase "mh apolhtai". It is translated as "should not perish", but it should be translated as "should not be perishing" ...
Quote:
apolhtai
apolEtai
G622
vs 2Aor Mid 3 Sg
SHOULD-BE-beING-destroyED
should-be-perishing
The idea seems to be that anyone who is not believe is in the process of perishing. Once one is quickened of the spirit though they be perishing in the body, they are made alive and or quickened in the spirit. The word "apolhtai" does not implicate an end state, so much as it indicates a natural predisposition. "Apolhtai" is the process of something or someone who has been and is perishing presently, and does not indicate whether or not the one who is in the process of perishing will inevitably perish because of it. The many in general are now perishing, though all will be quickened by the spirit and given repentance so that they will acknowledge the truth and believe and confess Christ as lord ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-14-2010 at 07:15 PM..
Would you reject God?
***********************
I am really not interested in responses from atheists.
If there is eternal torment then I suppose I would be FORCED to believe and accept a god that is unjust and Live the rest of Eternity in FEAR and RESENTMENT. So in that case, I would never be escaping Torment or ever find Rest.
If he backed down on his word about judgment, he would be liar, and that won't happen because it is impossible for god to lie.
Weak, shortlived, ignorant and damaged, that sparrow-fart "man" cannot do anything to deserve an infinity of never ending evil. The worse they ever did was to crucify the Lord of glory, and that is what has established their salvation. Judgment is represented by a blind-folded lady holding a balance in her hand. That represents the truth of God about "justice." He is impartial and, "A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work." (Proverbs 16:11; AV) One gram on one side does not equal an infinity beyond a neutron star on the other.
God tells us what mankind is worth: "Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity." (Psa 62:9; AV) "Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance." (Isaiah 40:15; AV) A drop from a bucket? The small dust of the balance? Things that are not even regarded or measured. You want us to believe it is justice, or sound judgment, this lighter than a lying vanity on one side of the balance and an infinite weight of ceaseless torture for ever is to continuously cascade on the other side of the balance? This displays there isn't any understanding of a just weight. "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." (Proverbs 11:1; AV)
[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 4:9-10; AV)
Mr5150, I'm not sure what you were expecting with your OP.
What do you mean by reject God? How can I reject something I believe exists? I believe in an all-powerful all-loving God. If God revealed himself to me plainly "in my face" so to speak, that would confirm my belief. If He also then told me most people are going to go to an eternal hell, and many people are already there and have been suffering for centuries - I would be completely shocked.
I would wonder why it had to be that way. I would ask why He effectively created an eternal torture chamber. I would ask why He could not save them? Is He not able to save them, or does He not want to save him? I would ask if He loves the souls who are in torment, and if His love is active and would do something to comfort the lost souls. I would ask if there was any hope. I would hope He would be able to answer me and explain it to me. But how would He wipe away my tears, when more tears would just replace them?
I would cry over their torment. I don't know how one could enjoy being in heaven knowing so many billions were suffering forever. Would God even be happy about this? Is God going to be upset forever over the lost souls that are burning endlessly? Why can we not go and preach to the souls in hell and try to save them? Why does God give up on us at our death? Why not keep trying to convert them? Is God going to make me forget their pain? Or is God going to make me somehow enjoy or at least be ambivalent to their pain?
Do you see the problem here with your OP Mr5150? Your OP raises so many other questions about God and about the nature of heaven, that it is not so simple to say whether you would "reject" God or not.
What picture of "god" are you trying to ask us if we would reject? The God who is not able to save all people? The God who doesn't want to save all people? The God who is sad forever because most of His creation rejects Him? The God who is happy forever because most of His creation is in torment?
None of these are the biblical picture of God.. so I reject any unbiblical picture of God because they are simply a crude caricature of the all-powerful all-loving God I know exists. He is mighty to save.
Your OP drives right to the heart of ET theology and all the contradictions it raises. I reject the false belief of eternal torment.
I am simply repeating the Orthodox understanding. The UR folk disagree. The fact that many have said they would reject God if Eternal Hell/Lake of Fire were the case. That is the case. UR folk have set up a new theology.
My question is: would you sill be faithful to God if your theology was wrong. The fact that nearly all UR folk here said no is telling. And 90 plus percent of serious Christians disagree with UR theology. I don't see it in the Bible nor do the rest. Please, spare me the sermon and just say whether you are good with God even if you don't under stand His ways. I gather the answer is no.
And you know what? I really don't want to discuss UR theology.
I guess what used to upset me when reading the Bible is like, God loves you, but once you cross the line, you immediately become his worst enemy. I don't know, such an us vs them mentality. Tbh sometimes I find the OT more merciful, because God gives people second and third chances but they are too wicked to repent. More understandable. And no eternal hellfire. Whereas the common understanding of the NT is it's easy to sin, hard to get into heaven, you've only got one chance and if you mess it up then you're eternally stuffed.
Strange theology. You a Catholic or a JW? I've never been to a church that teaches what you are saying.
I always love it when some people think that 99% of Bible translations are wrong, but *they* have it right. Gee maybe the whole thing is wrong and no one is really saved.
Such is how modern day cults start out. Everyone has it wrong except for me.
A cult is a group of people led by one person who keeps tight control on them and only allows certain beliefs within that group. Anybody who tries to question and/or study outside of the group is shunned and/or threatened with bodily harm (in Christianity's case, the God who sets you on fire). This describes Christianity and all of it's little groups perfectly.
You are in a beautiful time in history. You can freely examine all the information, study languages and concordances, study the history of the church, study ancient religions, and use the fruits of the spirit to sort through the mess.
Have at it, why don't you? Don't just sit there and judge. Study.
The who** who sits on waters controlling political systems. This is the church of today. Not many get out.
I guess what used to upset me when reading the Bible is like, God loves you, but once you cross the line, you immediately become his worst enemy. I don't know, such an us vs them mentality. Tbh sometimes I find the OT more merciful, because God gives people second and third chances but they are too wicked to repent. More understandable. And no eternal hellfire. Whereas the common understanding of the NT is it's easy to sin, hard to get into heaven, you've only got one chance and if you mess it up then you're eternally stuffed.
I get what you are saying Trimac. You are right about the "us" vs. "them" mentality - and it runs so contrary to what Jesus said: love your neighbor and love your enemies! Keep studying, things will click into place eventually.
Try to remember God is love, and love never fails. You've already figured out that love does not allow or purpose eternal torment, so that's a good start!
Weak, shortlived, ignorant and damaged, that sparrow-fart "man" cannot do anything to deserve an infinity of never ending evil. The worse they ever did was to crucify the Lord of glory, and that is what has established their salvation. Judgment is represented by a blind-folded lady holding a balance in her hand. That represents the truth of God about "justice." He is impartial and, "A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work." (Proverbs 16:11; AV) One gram on one side does not equal an infinity beyond a neutron star on the other.
God tells us what mankind is worth: "Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity." (Psa 62:9; AV) "Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance." (Isaiah 40:15; AV) A drop from a bucket? The small dust of the balance? Things that are not even regarded or measured. You want us to believe it is justice, or sound judgment, this lighter than a lying vanity on one side of the balance and an infinite weight of ceaseless torture for ever is to continuously cascade on the other side of the balance? This displays there isn't any understanding of a just weight. "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." (Proverbs 11:1; AV)
[9] Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 4:9-10; AV)
Those who believe that Eternal Torture is true justice are themselves, in as much, proven to be presently lawless ...
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