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Old 01-02-2011, 04:05 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,182,456 times
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My heart wants to believe in UR, but the Bible seems to teach CI and CI still makes instinctive sense to me. I think it's growing as an option who reject ET as full of tradition and un-Biblical, but also feel that UR simply isn't supported by the Word.

CI fits in with the OT, where sinners pay with death. It fits in with the most literal interpretation of Genesis 2:17, and it seems overwhelmingly the most just and fair.

I simply cannot bring myself to fully believe or embrace ET. When I believed in ET (which was as a kid and for a brief period in my later teens) I remember being full of fear. While other Christians looked forward to the return of Christ, I dreaded it because I knew so many people would be cast into an eternal lake of fire. What's more Jesus was supposed to send his angels to throw people into this never-ending torture chamber! When people spoke of God's love and mercy it just felt fake and phony. I suppose such a God you fear more than love, and if you force yourself you confuse the two. I loved God because I was told too, not because I truly felt his love and forgiveness.

Christ's sacrifice, death for death, that makes sense.

Christ's sacrifice, 10 hours of pain on the cross (granted pretty bad pain), for an eternity of pain x about 100 billion people?
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Florida
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What is CI ?
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:35 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
What is CI ?
Conditional Immortality.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,476 posts, read 7,561,264 times
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Thank you all for your responses so far, even Allen. You believe what you believe and that is good. You are still very young, and I do believe attitudes towards things like the afterlife tend to change over time as you get older. There was a time I thought like you did, mostly in part to the extensive brainwashing of the ET doctrine that I was subjected to while growing up. Stick with what works for you. Me, on the other hand.... I will not take for truths concepts that are completely foreign to me. And for the purpose of this thread, this includes a vengeful god that will allow virtually his entire creation to suffer in hell forever.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
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Here I am again.

I hate to repeat the same thing over and over, but I'll throw it out there. Nowhere in the original scriptures does it teach the concept of God torturing humanity for eternity. Nowhere. That is a fact. Those who keep going to the English versions of the Bible will always point to the word "hell" and tell you, "There! There it is!" That is absolute nonsense, and I can't figure out why the pastors and preachers say nothing about it. Nothing. (Well, I'm starting to figure it out)

If God is good and God is love and his fruits are-->>>>love, joy, peace, and patience, then anything contrary to his Spirit doesn't exist in the end. It doesn't. It can't. He will never rule nor reign if darkness, chaos, confusion, and torture exists forever.

I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine Jesus sitting with the little children on his lap or his arms wrapped around the drunks and the prostitutes saying to them, "My Father created you and he loves you," and in the next sentence, "But my Father will set you on fire for eternity and listen to you scream if you don't love me."

What absolute demented sickness!

You know who he talked to like that (kind of)?? The religious!

The whole concept of the underworlds and the literal fiery hells came straight out of the dark recesses of primitive minds, and it continues to this day in the religious seats of this present world. It has taken over. Only, it's worse today than it ever was in pagan times. Much, much worse. Because it is the Church which was commanded to hand out the love of God to the world that is preaching old-time pagan horrors!!

Those guys out there who started this (Catholicism and then Protestantism) know better. They knew better. I know they did. And they refuse to say they were wrong. They refuse to say they screwed up. They refuse to back down. They refuse to make amends. They refuse to heal souls and minds. They refuse.

Now, I can help spread the truth, and I'm trying. I'm really trying. But, sometimes, my blood boils. My head starts spinning. Because I know what kind of torment this world goes through, and I know how many people have sat in bed crying at night. I hate the eternal torment doctrine with all of my being. I hate it.

I don't hate it only because I can't imagine Jesus doing these things to humanity, I hate it because I've studied my brains out to be sure this doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible, and now I know that there are men out there who don't care that it doesn't exist, but are still preaching it!! And making money off of it! And ruling over others because of it!!

I'm just so angry. I will do anything in my power to help those out there to understand who Christ is and what he taught. I will do anything in my power to show people what love is and what it isn't. I haven't given you any links or any Bible verses in this post. But I've given you my heart.

I hope this helps you understand a little better.

(Sorry for all the yelling. I'm a little passionate about this if you hadn't noticed )
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:59 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,707 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Here I am again.

I hate to repeat the same thing over and over, but I'll throw it out there. Nowhere in the original scriptures does it teach the concept of God torturing humanity for eternity. Nowhere. That is a fact. Those who keep going to the English versions of the Bible will always point to the word "hell" and tell you, "There! There it is!" That is absolute nonsense, and I can't figure out why the pastors and preachers say nothing about it. Nothing. (Well, I'm starting to figure it out)

If God is good and God is love and his fruits are-->>>>love, joy, peace, and patience, then anything contrary to his Spirit doesn't exist in the end. It doesn't. It can't. He will never rule nor reign if darkness, chaos, confusion, and torture exists forever.

I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine Jesus sitting with the little children on his lap or his arms wrapped around the drunks and the prostitutes saying to them, "My Father created you and he loves you," and in the next sentence, "But my Father will set you on fire for eternity and listen to you scream if you don't love me."

What absolute demented sickness!

You know who he talked to like that (kind of)?? The religious!

The whole concept of the underworlds and the literal fiery hells came straight out of the dark recesses of primitive minds, and it continues to this day in the religious seats of this present world. It has taken over. Only, it's worse today than it ever was in pagan times. Much, much worse. Because it is the Church which was commanded to hand out the love of God to the world that is preaching old-time pagan horrors!!

Those guys out there who started this (Catholicism and then Protestantism) know better. They knew better. I know they did. And they refuse to say they were wrong. They refuse to say they screwed up. They refuse to back down. They refuse to make amends. They refuse to heal souls and minds. They refuse.

Now, I can help spread the truth, and I'm trying. I'm really trying. But, sometimes, my blood boils. My head starts spinning. Because I know what kind of torment this world goes through, and I know how many people have sat in bed crying at night. I hate the eternal torment doctrine with all of my being. I hate it.

I don't hate it only because I can't imagine Jesus doing these things to humanity, I hate it because I've studied my brains out to be sure this doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible, and now I know that there are men out there who don't care that it doesn't exist, but are still preaching it!! And making money off of it! And ruling over others because of it!!

I'm just so angry. I will do anything in my power to help those out there to understand who Christ is and what he taught. I will do anything in my power to show people what love is and what it isn't. I haven't given you any links or any Bible verses in this post. But I've given you my heart.

I hope this helps you understand a little better.

(Sorry for all the yelling. I'm a little passionate about this if you hadn't noticed )
But you are in a annihilation thread yelling about eternal hell? Why? I actually agree with most of your post, but you cannot,,,no matter how much it pains you,,take out the divine justice of God. After all, it was the reason His Son was sent, so that those who believe ON His Son, can have Life,,,and Life eternal.

Let me ask you a question, in all sincerity.

If YOU, were given the choice, after dying in your sin without a redeemer between 1000 years of the most intense divine punishment imaginable, to attain Life,,,or complete annihilation,,,what would your choice be?

Now, what loving God would put ANYONE through worse than anything that we have not already endured here on earth or can imagine? And if it isn't worse than we can imagine, what then is 'divine justice'?

If the choice were mine, if I were an unbeliever,,I would say "so be it". I would rather just die. At least non existance is more 'humane' than torture of any kind, or punishment of any kind, or forcing me to do something I do not want to do.
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,630,903 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
But you are in a annihilation thread yelling about eternal hell? Why? I actually agree with most of your post, but you cannot,,,no matter how much it pains you,,take out the divine justice of God. After all, it was the reason His Son was sent, so that those who believe ON His Son, can have Life,,,and Life eternal.

Let me ask you a question, in all sincerity.

If YOU, were given the choice, after dying in your sin without a redeemer between 1000 years of the most intense divine punishment imaginable, to attain Life,,,or complete annihilation,,,what would your choice be?

Now, what loving God would put ANYONE through worse than anything that we have not already endured here on earth or can imagine? And if it isn't worse than we can imagine, what then is 'divine justice'?

If the choice were mine, if I were an unbeliever,,I would say "so be it". I would rather just die. At least non existance is more 'humane' than torture of any kind, or punishment of any kind, or forcing me to do something I do not want to do.
HotinAZ, what do you think of the fact that Moses would rather be blotted out of the book of life (to suffer annhilation) than to follow a God that wouldnj't take away the sins of sinners?
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:14 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
HotinAZ, what do you think of the fact that Moses would rather be blotted out of the book of life (to suffer annhilation) than to follow a God that wouldnj't take away the sins of sinners?
I think Moses showed extreme love for his followers. At the same time,,,why is it do you think Satan contended for him?

Moses was saved through Jesus Christ. The 'First-Fruits'. He could not see, nor understand why God did what He did, because he could not fathom the purpose nor reason behind it. So, he reasoned with God concerning this trying to make a Messianic Atonement for the people, and
God was not having it. He basically told him to do what he was told, and not concern himself with it.
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,382,240 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
But you are in a annihilation thread yelling about eternal hell? Why? I actually agree with most of your post, but you cannot,,,no matter how much it pains you,,take out the divine justice of God. After all, it was the reason His Son was sent, so that those who believe ON His Son, can have Life,,,and Life eternal.

Let me ask you a question, in all sincerity.

If YOU, were given the choice, after dying in your sin without a redeemer between 1000 years of the most intense divine punishment imaginable, to attain Life,,,or complete annihilation,,,what would your choice be?

Now, what loving God would put ANYONE through worse than anything that we have not already endured here on earth or can imagine? And if it isn't worse than we can imagine, what then is 'divine justice'?

If the choice were mine, if I were an unbeliever,,I would say "so be it". I would rather just die. At least non existance is more 'humane' than torture of any kind, or punishment of any kind, or forcing me to do something I do not want to do.

Are you saying that God's power just isn't powerful enough to make everybody see the light and crumble into repentance?

Hmm..

Since he hasn't poked his head in here much, I'm thinking we just can't comprehend how powerful the light is, and we are limiting who he is in a big way when we say that those evil people outmaneuvered him. As if they could say to him: "Ha, ha. You couldn't change me. I won. Destroy me." Kind of like some guy who goes out with his gun and starts shooting at the police who are armed to the teeth.

Last edited by herefornow; 01-02-2011 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,571,687 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Here I am again.

I hate to repeat the same thing over and over, but I'll throw it out there. Nowhere in the original scriptures does it teach the concept of God torturing humanity for eternity. Nowhere. That is a fact. Those who keep going to the English versions of the Bible will always point to the word "hell" and tell you, "There! There it is!" That is absolute nonsense, and I can't figure out why the pastors and preachers say nothing about it. Nothing. (Well, I'm starting to figure it out)

If God is good and God is love and his fruits are-->>>>love, joy, peace, and patience, then anything contrary to his Spirit doesn't exist in the end. It doesn't. It can't. He will never rule nor reign if darkness, chaos, confusion, and torture exists forever.

I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine Jesus sitting with the little children on his lap or his arms wrapped around the drunks and the prostitutes saying to them, "My Father created you and he loves you," and in the next sentence, "But my Father will set you on fire for eternity and listen to you scream if you don't love me."

What absolute demented sickness!

You know who he talked to like that (kind of)?? The religious!

The whole concept of the underworlds and the literal fiery hells came straight out of the dark recesses of primitive minds, and it continues to this day in the religious seats of this present world. It has taken over. Only, it's worse today than it ever was in pagan times. Much, much worse. Because it is the Church which was commanded to hand out the love of God to the world that is preaching old-time pagan horrors!!

Those guys out there who started this (Catholicism and then Protestantism) know better. They knew better. I know they did. And they refuse to say they were wrong. They refuse to say they screwed up. They refuse to back down. They refuse to make amends. They refuse to heal souls and minds. They refuse.

Now, I can help spread the truth, and I'm trying. I'm really trying. But, sometimes, my blood boils. My head starts spinning. Because I know what kind of torment this world goes through, and I know how many people have sat in bed crying at night. I hate the eternal torment doctrine with all of my being. I hate it.

I don't hate it only because I can't imagine Jesus doing these things to humanity, I hate it because I've studied my brains out to be sure this doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible, and now I know that there are men out there who don't care that it doesn't exist, but are still preaching it!! And making money off of it! And ruling over others because of it!!

I'm just so angry. I will do anything in my power to help those out there to understand who Christ is and what he taught. I will do anything in my power to show people what love is and what it isn't. I haven't given you any links or any Bible verses in this post. But I've given you my heart.

I hope this helps you understand a little better.

(Sorry for all the yelling. I'm a little passionate about this if you hadn't noticed )
Amen and Amen! I love your passion! The world desperately needs people with your zeal for and love of the truth. We have no idea how many may be reading these posts who are bound up by the power of religious lies who are desperately searching for the truth about God's love.
Therefore, I feel certain that your passion and zeal are not wasted nor in vain. Your anger is pure. There is a pure anger that comes from LOVE.
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