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Old 01-04-2011, 05:46 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,627,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
To the contrary. The Scriptures emphatically show the division of the body, soul, and human spirit.

1 Thess 5:23 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 'For the word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercng even to the dividing asnder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In Matthew 10:28 it is seen that the soul survives the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'' This is in reference to the unbeliever who will end up in the lake of fire. It is seen that though man can kill the body, man cannot kill the soul. The soul continues to live on after the body has died. Jesus can destroy the soul in hell, but destuction does not mean annihilation. It means that the soul of the unbeliever will forever exist in a state of ruin and uselessness in the lake of fire in conscious suffering.

See also the following passages.

Revelation 6:9 'And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the alter the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10] and they cried out with a loud voice, sying, ''How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?''

These are the souls of those Tribulational believers who were martyred, and are in heaven. This is before their bodies are resurrected. They are conscious as can be seen.

Revelation 20:4 '...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not been worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here the tribulational martyrs in heaven are being resurrected.

Phil 1:21 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22] But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor; for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23] But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24] yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul did not say that it is better to enter into soul-sleep and remain unconsious or non-existant until he was resurrected. He said that it is better to depart and be with Christ. Remember also, that Paul had at one point been taken up into heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up bodily or out of the body. It may be that he had actually died when he was stoned on one occasion (Acts 14:19). Paul had heard inexpressible words in heaven. As a result, he was given a thorn in his side to keep him humble after his experience.

2 Peter 1:13 'And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling (his body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at ay time after my departure you may be able to call these things to mind.'

Peter speaks of the setting aside of his body and departing from it. He states that his body is his earthly dwelling. He dwells in his body. And he is about to depart from his body.

Luke 23:43 'And He said to him, ''Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.'' Since the resurrection and acension of Jesus, Paradise is located in the third heaven as per 2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Prior to that, Paradise was located in Hades, separated from 'Torments' by the abyss. It was to Paradise in Hades that both Jesus and the thief went after they died.

And refer to my other thread on the subject.

The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment

Now, as amazing as it seems, there are people who in spite of all these passages will still deny that the soul which is the real person, is separate from the body and continues on in conscious existence.
No, the body is exactly what it infers, the spirit is the character of the person, and the soul is the life exhibited.

The spirit apart from the body is non existing. Again, there is no life apart from the body. A spirit + body = soul. I suggest you go look up all those verses again. The word for soul is often translated as "life". Because that is what you have once you join the spirit to the body.
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:50 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Forget the translations. In the original Hebrew and Greek, Sheol/Hades is where the soul of both believer and unbeliever went after death, before the resurrection of Christ, and where unbelievers still go.

I gave you the link to my thread which covered this. You say you have no interest in going into it. Very well. Conversation over!!!
I didn't give you translations. I gave you verses. And those verses prove that hades is nothing more than the grave.
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't deny what I said at all.

Then what I said is not false, simple.
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:42 AM
 
351 posts, read 283,083 times
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I read this whole thread and I agree that the differances in the two doctrines will not be resolved here but I do enjoy the differant perspectives. I do have a couple of questions for Mike.

Where in the Bible does it say babies and the young or mentally ill atomaticly go to heaven?

Where does it say the soul is immortal?

If we already have immortality why do we need resserection of a mortal body that can not enter heaven.

Where does it say that God gives us a soul at the monent of birth?
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:50 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,541,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschulz View Post

Where does it say that God gives us a soul at the monent of birth?
This is the one that puzzles me. If babies are infused with souls at the moment of birth, then abortions are okay because we're just killing a soulless organism, like a bacteria or an amoeba.
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:17 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,043,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
The early church didn't have NT writings (and that may explain why their faith was so strong). The apostles may have taught, but the gospel went out into all the world, and obviously the apostles were only in limited places.

When we exalt the Bible above God, we commit idolatry. That is what you are teaching, idolatry.
When you receive the Holy Ghost, you will begin to KNOW God personally, and the scriptures will make more sense to you.
The "sound doctrine" that Paul preached was the doctrine of salvation of the world through Jesus Christ. Not what is taught in churches today, which is no more than man's doctrines of separation. Each denomination excludes the others. What does that tell you? It tells you that Christendom is LOST. It does not know the Love of God, because if it did, it would not condemn it's neighbor whom God sent His only Begotten Son to save.

So I dismiss YOUR doctrine, not the doctrine of what Paul taught, which is the salvation of the world which Christ accomplished at Calvary.

The Bible won't cause you to know God. Only the Spirit can do that, Mike. We need the Living Spirit of God in us, not more Bible study.

Blessings,
brian

Spot on and may the Almighty Bless you for this sacred truth!

Mike, you quote the scriptures but you lack the spirit to understand what you quote. Repent and be baptized of the Holy Spirit, not just baptism unto repentance
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:53 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
No Mike, it's a precise experience which I can see you haven't had yet. Once you have it, you will know what I say is the truth.
Obviously if you've never had it, you would day yhat it doesn't exist. The same is true for the atheist who doesn't believe there's a God-- until He shows up.

Blessings to you,
brian
You have no idea what you're talking about. I just told you what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is and gave a few passages pertaining to it. It is quite simply the placing of the church-age believer into union with Jesus Christ and it occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. It is that which makes the church a new creation, where both Jew and Gentle are a part of the body of Christ. Because of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the believer shares the sonship, heirship, priesthood, righteousness, eternal life, and destiny of Jesus Christ.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:00 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Then what I said is not false, simple.
I told you what to do. You post the link to the thread and the post number here on this thread so that people can see what I said.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. I just told you what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is and gave a few passages pertaining to it. It is quite simply the placing of the church-age believer into union with Jesus Christ and it occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. It is that which makes the church a new creation, where both Jew and Gentle are a part of the body of Christ. Because of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the believer shares the sonship, heirship, priesthood, righteousness, eternal life, and destiny of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps they are confusing the baptism of the Spirit (which results in indwelling of the Spirit), with the filling of the Spirit. Many believers have the Spirit indwelling in them, but they suppress/quench/grieve it and do not allow it to work in their lives.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:02 AM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,638,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I didn't give you translations. I gave you verses. And those verses prove that hades is nothing more than the grave.
You will not go into my thread to see what I wrote, so again, end of discussion.
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