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Old 01-14-2011, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

The truth is you are deecieving yourself, and you know it. I think that is a very sad state.
Was that necessary....Christian?

Quote:
Go and ask any religious Jew on the planet if the bible teaches that all nations descended from Adam and see how they respond.
I beg to differ......now to the meat of your presentation....

Quote:
Which one of Noah's three sons did Abraham descend from? Answer : Shem ...

And what became of the descendants of Ham and Japheth? And what of the other sons of Shem? The ones whom Abraham did not descend from?

I am glad that you are posting these things, as we are now getting to the heart of what you are teaching and its fallacies for everyone to see ...

30 different nations came from the descendants of Ham alone, and not one of the was the nation of Israel. And Ham came from Noah, and Noah descended from Adam.

Shem had 6 sons, and Abraham only descended from one of them obviously, Arphaxad.
The above only deals with the Mesopotamian valley. In that I agree...to an extent. It is clear through many Christian and Jewish archeologists and their painstaking endeavors producing various archeological accounts, that the Hebrews are rooted in the Akkadians, and the Babylonians are rooted in the Sumerian...just peek at their cuneiform and it is obvious Akkadian is a pre-Semitic tongue....and Sumerian is not...at all.

But you haven't even touched the 75 million other people who were alive the time Noah stepped off the ark. Care to go there?

What say you?

 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:21 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,204,102 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Was that necessary....Christian?

I beg to differ......now to the meat of your presentation....

The above only deals with the Mesopotamian valley. In that I agree...to an extent. It is clear through many Christian and Jewish archeologists and their painstaking endeavors producing various archeological accounts, that the Hebrews are rooted in the Akkadians, and the Babylonians are rooted in the Sumerian...just peek at their cuneiform and it is obvious Akkadian is a pre-Semitic tongue....and Sumerian is not...at all.

But you haven't even touched the 75 million other people who were alive the time Noah stepped off the ark. Care to go there?

What say you?
I posted a link below the image which speaks of the descendants of Ham, Shem, And Japeth, you must have missed it.



Quote:
Four Sons of Ham :
1. Mizraim (Egypt)
2. Cush (Sudan, Ethiopia)
3. Put (Lybia)
4. Canaan (Hivites, Jebusites, Arvadites, Girga****es, Amorites, Arkites, Sinites, Hittites,
Sidonians, Perizzites, Zemarites)


Seven Sons of Japheth :
1. Javan (Greece, Romans, Romance -- French, Italians, Spanish, Portuguese)
2. Magog (Scythians, Slavs, Russians, Bulgarians, Bohemians, Poles, Slovaks, Croatians)
3. Madai (Indians & Iranic: Medes, Persians, Afghans, Kurds)
4. Tubal (South of Black Sea)
5. Tiras (Thracians, Teutons, Germans, Scandinavian, Anglo-Saxon, Jutes)
6. Meshech (Russia)
7. Gomer (Celtic)


Five Sons of Shem :
1. Elam (Arabia)
2. Asshur (Assyria)
3. Lud (Lydians)
4. Aram (Aramaic, Armenia, Mesopotamia, Syria)
5. Arphaxad (From which Abraham descended)


From: The Table of Nations: Ham, Shem and Japheth, Sons of Noah -- Courtesy of Return To Glory
 
Old 01-14-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I posted a link below the image which speaks of the descendants of Ham, Shem, And Japeth, you must have missed it


From: The Table of Nations: Ham, Shem and Japheth, Sons of Noah -- Courtesy of Return To Glory
The Freeman institute are Young Earth benefactors and creationists.
I was asking for something a little more....legit?

Are you saying that you support the notion that the human population was wiped clean during the flood, and that all the descendants of the world...including the aboriginals in Australia, that were around the time Noah stepped off the ark, is from his lineage?

I ask again....what about the 75 million other people who were alive the time Noah stepped off the ark?

Because of your universal application to this, you have tied Adam's sin as a universal condemnation, when it was ONLY a covenantal, in that dealing with his lineage...hence the flood....destroyed his seed...except for Noah and his family....while the rest of the people of the world outside the basin, continued building their civilizations.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-14-2011 at 06:57 PM.. Reason: sp
 
Old 01-14-2011, 07:37 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,204,102 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The Freeman institute are Young Earth benefactors and creationists.
I was asking for something a little more....legit?

Are you saying that you support the notion that the human population was wiped clean during the flood, and that all the descendants of the world...including the aboriginals in Australia, that were around the time Noah stepped off the ark, is from his lineage?

I ask again....what about the 75 million other people who were alive the time Noah stepped off the ark?

Because of your universal application to this, you have tied Adam's sin as a universal condemnation, when it was ONLY a covenantal, in that dealing with his lineage...hence the flood....destroyed his seed...except for Noah and his family....while the rest of the people of the world outside the basin, continued building their civilizations.
The source for the information on that page is "The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia", why are you trying to discredit the information that is obviously from genetic records in the old testament by slandering the other things they teach on that site that you disagree with?

I am not a young world creationist myself, but i have studied the genealogies of the old testament and how the nations developed over time in the scriptures, and the information on that page is accurate according to mine own studies.

Have you ever taken the time to study the genealogies of the old testament?

It is perfectly fine if you don't believe what the scriptures teach, i have been aware of the fact that you do not for some time, but for you to say that Paul did not believe it is ridiculous and a little dishonest.

Paul did not believe in evolution, and he did not believe the way that you do. The theory of evolution did not even exist back then, and Paul clearly writes as one who believed in creation account of genesis, including the flood of Noah.

If what you are teaching is true, then God is a liar ...


Genesis 9:11
"And I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.


All you are doing is muddying the water ... So according to you and whatever your sources may be, there were 75 million people who did not die in the great deluge.

Isn't it interesting that cultures all over the world have accounts of a world wide flood in ancient times as well?

Here are the words of Josephus ...

Quote:
Now all the writers of barbarian [Greek] histories make mention of this flood and of this ark: among whom is Berosus the Chaldean... Hieronymous the Egyptian.... Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them, where he speaks thus: 'There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses, the legislator of the Jews wrote'.

And here are some other interesting statistics ...

Quote:
It is true that the Genesis flood account shares many striking similarities with the Babylonian Gilgamesh epic, and with the Babylonian Atrahasis epic, for that matter. In fact, literally hundreds of flood traditions have been preserved all over the world, with traditions abounding in Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia, as well as both of the Americas, and the Genesis account shares similarities with most of them. Of the flood traditions which have survived to the present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood. More than one third of these traditions mention birds being sent out from the boat.

From: Did the Bible copy the Flood account from other myths and legends?
And looky here ... This is an Australian Aboriginal tradition of the global flood as well ...

Quote:
In ancient times the sea made the watermarks on the mountains and ranges. For example Mt. House, Mt. Waterloo, Mt. Hann all have these watermarks, they are right on top. The reason for this flood was men killed the old woman’s third son, the one she loved.
This old lady went down and speared the “eye” of the sea. It is said that she was staying on Nowulu Island. The son was dear to her. They told her “They have killed him; already they have taken his life,” they told her. “Ah,” she said. She wept once and did not weep again. “I’ll finish them” she said. She went over to a place called Garajin and there she speared and poked the small “hole” in the sea. The sea went back and back exceedingly, it sucked it right out. The place was left hard and dry and the fish were flapping about on the hard (bottom) place for there was no water. At that time the mountains were made.
We say, the present tides don’t rise like this. For this sea travelled across like a range to them. The mountains sank beneath it. Then she finished them. They were drowned. While still there was no water, that is at the time when it disappeared, she picked up turtle and fish and took them up to the top of the hill at Nowulu The place is called Nowulu, it’s an island, that the place she climbed up to. Here she remained and dug for water right on the top Then that one—the sea—was travelling and all the mainland was underneath it. That was the time it went back. That time it finished them; it drowned all those men. Only those who climbed right on top, over there, only those may be living. Then they returned this way. that was the sea that drowned all the men of that generation on the earth. Then (that time) they made themselves into turtle and fish and now those of that generation are living creatures in the sea. They were people first but they made themselves sea-creatures. The sea drowned them all.


From: http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...-flood-stories
Now isn't that interesting?



I do not have to maintain that the flood of Noah was global, it did not have to be, as most of humanity inhabited the same part of the earth at that time. And neither do I have to maintain that only Noah and his family survived the flood, as they can be understood as a generalization made for the purpose of making a point.

All i have to maintain is that Paul believed as the scriptures clearly teach, that all nations descended from Adam. You are the the one who must say that the creation story of genesis and the story of the tower of babel are myth, and that the scripture account that all nations descended from Adam is a lie, in order to validate your beliefs.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-14-2011 at 07:55 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The source for the information on that page is "The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia", why are you trying to discredit the information that is obviously from genetic records in the old testament by slandering the other things they teach on that site that you disagree with?
Because their beliefs influence what they write....it's called presuppositions. Also, the link you provided has zero scientific data on them....the ISB is young earth as well...so....out the window it goes.
I will get to the genetic records below.

Quote:
I am not a young world creationist myself, but i have studied the genealogies of the old testament and how the nations developed over time in the scriptures, and the information on that page is accurate according to mine own studies.
Precisely 4500 years of time from Adam to Christ. Would you care to elaborate the above assumptions based on Biblical evidence?

Quote:
Have you ever taken the time to study the genealogies of the old testament?
Quite extensively.

Quote:
It is perfectly fine if you don't believe what the scriptures teach
Another assumption....I believe what I believe the scriptures teach.

Quote:
i have been aware of the fact that you do not for some time, but for you to say that Paul did not believe it is ridiculous and a little dishonest.
Huh?

Quote:
Paul did not believe in evolution
You don't know that. They didn't even think the earth was flat, so another straw man.

Quote:
and he did not believe the way that you do. The theory of evolution did not even exist back then,
Precisely.

Quote:
and Paul clearly writes as one who believed in creation account of genesis, including the flood of Noah.
So...don't we all?
Have you ever studied early mesopatamian phrases such as....

The Heavens and Earth, Earth and Heavens? Apart from Genesis, but in perfect cultural/historical standing with it?

Quote:
If what you are teaching is true, then God is a liar ...
Quite the opposite.


Quote:
Genesis 9:11
"And I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.
All flesh....

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man (AWDAM), for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Those from Adam.

Quote:
All you are doing is muddying the water
Nope.

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... So according to you and whatever your sources may be, there were 75 million people who did not die in the great deluge.
Yup...archeology proves that. Go down to your local museum.

Quote:
Isn't it interesting that cultures all over the world have accounts of a world wide flood in ancient times as well?
Actually they don't.

Quote:
Here are the words of Josephus ...
First...Ironmaw, Josephus wrote about other writers who indicated that the flood was local and that some inhabitants survived by seeking higher ground...you should really read it again. I bolded some bullet points for you.

"Now all the writers of barbarian [Greek] histories make mention of this flood and of this ark: among whom is Berosus the Chaldean... Hieronymous the Egyptian.... Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them, where he speaks thus: 'There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses, the legislator of the Jews wrote'."8

Josephus does not seek to correct their narrative. So, the idea that the flood was a local event is not just something mustered up in my imagination. It was local, people survived, and lived, and did not perish as all flesh.

I have many more links....from Christian archeologists if you care to study further.

Quote:
And here are some other interesting statistics ...
Another Global Flood site....they are old earth though...they have that going for them.

Quote:
And looky here ... This is an Australian Aboriginal tradition of the global flood as well ...
So? Many cultures have various flood accounts, all differing from one another in many ways. But not all cultures have them, in fact many that were around before the flood, do not, and geology proves that.

God is not a deceiver.

Quote:
I do not have to maintain that the flood of Noah was global,
You just did.

Quote:
did not have to be, as most of humanity inhabited the same part of the earth at that time.
LOL.....that is false. Historically, scientifically, archeologically, and culturally. There are millions of links that disprove this very statement alone.

Quote:
All i have to maintain is that Paul believed as the scriptures clearly teach, that all nations descended from Adam.
The nations of Israel.....sure, and most definitely some neighboring civilizations in the lower and upper Mesopotamian valley.

When the most High divided to the nations (gowy - sons of Abraham) their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation (gowy-Israel) [is] a wise and understanding people

You have proven nothing there.

Quote:
You are the the one who must say that the creation story of genesis and the story of the tower of babel are myth, and that the scripture account that all nations descended from Adam is a lie, in order to validate your beliefs.
I never said they were a myth. They are very real, historical events, that took place between 6000 BC and 3000 BC. Adam lived at the dawn of the bronze age. Read the scriptures again.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-14-2011 at 08:40 PM..
 
Old 01-14-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,383,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man (AWDAM), for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Those from Adam.


The nations of Israel.....sure, and most definitely some neighboring civilizations in the lower and upper Mesopotamian valley.

When the most High divided to the nations (gowy - sons of Abraham) their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
I'm really confused, here, sciotamicks. Are you trying to say that Adam is related to only some people on this planet? And what does this have to do with the spiritual side of things? The circumcision of the heart is what matters, anyway.

If I have been reading you correctly, you are trying to say that only in Adam all died even though all the human race is dying?

I'm not getting it.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:07 PM
 
17,786 posts, read 8,896,463 times
Reputation: 1495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I said I was done with you. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, and by the way, I reported you for your remarks in the other thread concerning 'the Greek word for torment'.
A breach, infraction, or violation is a transgression which denotes in some way the breaking of a rule or law; upsetting the normal and desired state of manís acceptance within the boundaries of his knowledge and understanding. However, the adolescent frequently supposes that he is breaking out of the confines of his mundane, schoolmaster existence, simply by being a talebearer in order to defy or refute others, converting
every minor infraction into a sin of omission or commission. It certainly does not occur to him that by doing so, he is only erecting for himself an idol of the heart in his journey towards a more reasonable approach of
expounding without being evasive. Thus, he violates his own ethical code of claiming maturity.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:08 PM
 
17,786 posts, read 8,896,463 times
Reputation: 1495
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'm really confused, here, sciotamicks. Are you trying to say that Adam is related to only some people on this planet? And what does this have to do with the spiritual side of things? The circumcision of the heart is what matters, anyway.

If I have been reading you correctly, you are trying to say that only in Adam all died even though all the human race is dying?

I'm not getting it.
Now, isn't that interesting?
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'm really confused, here, sciotamicks. Are you trying to say that Adam is related to only some people on this planet? And what does this have to do with the spiritual side of things? The circumcision of the heart is what matters, anyway. If I have been reading you correctly, you are trying to say that only in Adam all died even though all the human race is dying?

I'm not getting it.
Very true indeed herefornow....that is what matters, and that is how God can tell if we are sincere about our feelings for Him.

To answer your first and second questions, yes, Adam, biologically, is only related to some, not all. His sin was imputed upon not all men, as for Paul said, for until the law, sin was in the world, and there is no sin, without law. Adam received a command, a law, which he forsook, and perished because of it.

Paul also said to the Gentiles...God winked at your sins in the past....spiritually...it has to do with covenant life. Adam was in covenant, so are Christians. Adam was the light bearer for God....a quick peek into Jubilees reveals this, alongside the scriptures, being in Adam, is NOT all people...because Paul said...I was alive, until I knew the law...then I died. There is an inherent propensity by Christians to “assume” that the all that is spoken of by Paul is to be inferred universally toward all men in context to the discussion. Yes and no. Yes, when the Gospel is for all men but no, when specifically discussing the corporate application of salvation and covenant inclusion.

Rom 5:18-19 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Now let us consider the earlier application of all men by Paul just a few verses earlier.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

So how are we to consider the all men of verse 12 when it comes to the death? The answer is similar to the previous point. The all men under consideration that Paul has under consideration are only those Men seeking relationship with the One True God from Adam onward through a Covenant status. Those outside of this Covenant relationship already resided in the original darkness which excludes them from Life with God........

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

....and their position as dead men was already a given and firmly established. The Death of Adam was a Covenantal Death as he was the first and original hope of humanity for reconciliation with God but through the weakness of the imperfect flesh those men who strove to know the God of Adam, Abraham and Moses would have futility until Christ. Contrary then to popular understanding Adam should not be understood as a biological progenitor of sin death but instead is one through whom was established a “covenantal" sin death” progeny as that is the default understanding found throughout scriptures. It is only in Covenant that Man is established with God and outside it becomes a moot point. When men come seeking God in Covenant is when they are effectively under consideration for Paul’s all men classification. The question of whether Gentile Pagan men were in Darkness and already effectively dead to God is never an issue as it is the default understanding of scriptures. That is why Adam corresponds to the beginning creation of Light out of the void of Darkness and was created from the dead and mortal dust of the Earth and from a dry wilderness land in Genesis. This is also why because of the fall that he would return to the dust of the earth because he had lost the Garden immortality through the weakness of the flesh and only through Christ this lost immortal life would be reclaimed for Covenant mankind.

Paul tells us clearly his logic and reasoning concerning the all:

Rom 9:7-8 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Sin or "the sin nature" is not biologically inherited. The argument I often hear from those who insist Adam was the first biological man (and has to be) is that if he wasn't, how could we say that "all men are under sin or death?" You can see the emphasis these folks place on biology, and physicality...as if sin resides in the physical body, which is a gnostic concept when you really think about it.
 
Old 01-14-2011, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
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