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Old 01-18-2011, 08:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
huh?

I didn't say controlling ANY decision of man. But God is IN control, period. Always has been, always will be.
Adam's decision did in fact control what happened to man. That's what he was saying and you know this. Just as Christ's decision controlled the redemption of man and much more.

But yes, of course God is in ultimate controll... of things he wishes to be in control of, which is not every thing or decision here on earth, or in heaven. In order for love to exist there has to be free will. If there is no such thing thing as free will then there is no such thing as us loving God.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
This sounds more like religion than anything. So, the temptation of Christ Jesus was not a test? So, Adam could NEVER have obeyed God and not eaten of the TOKOGAE? After all, Adam was IN the Garden of Eden, walking with God.

So, in order to KNOW good, one must experience evil? Really? Nothing can be based upon good without evil? Interesting analogy, but WAY off the mark.

God IS good. So God IS evil? Is this what you are saying? Or am I not understanding this explaination?
What does this say to you? . . .

Romans 8:18-22 CLV For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current
era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. (19) For the
premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
(20) For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but
because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" (21) that the creation
itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious
freedom of the children of God." (22) For we are aware that the entire
creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

The creation did not volunteer to be made subjected to vanity.

God did this to the whole creation for a purpose as stated in verses 20,21.

Do you believe it?
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The fact is, Paul did not say Jesus is the last human. He said He is the SECOND Adam.
Did Paul, with a simple yes or no,,call Jesus the LAST ADAM. Easy answer.

Next question. DEFINE ADAM. Remember this word is taken RIGHT FROM the Hebrew texts. Adam=man. Got it thus far??

Quote:
Stick with the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 CLV (45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
Thus it is written also, The first human, Adam, "became a
living soul: the last Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the
spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first human was
out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."

Actually, I am NOT sticking with this mistranslation. There have been enough screw-ups over the years. You have taken this man at his word, and let him translate, which you have NOT disputed,,a word given 2 different meaning within the SAME verse. Not happening, unless there is an agenda behind it.

We have
  • the first MAN, Adam
  • the last Adam
Then we have
  • the first MAN
  • the second MAN

Only 2 men.


Quote:
No, it just says Jesus is the second human and last Adam.
There will not be another Adam by which all humanity are neutral recipients of what another Adam does.
Convenient doctrine you have there. Once again, you are failing at proper understanding of covenants, plans of redemptions, and final outcomes based upon your preconceived doctrines. You MUST, as well as Young, convert the Word to mean something it doesn't.


Quote:
You should first learn what "first" and "second" mean and "first human" and "last Adam" mean. Otherwise your understanding is imperfect.
I don't NEED to do any such thing, as I throw out,,for ALL to see,,,YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION.

So, let us go to the Greek and Hebrew. Up for it?????
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
Adam's decision did in fact control what happened to man.
Well, since you are new to this,,,I will explain something to you. YOU are ADAM. All of humanity has nothing to do with what you do, did, will do. The first Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, PERFECT in EVERY WAY. Adam chose to fall, as do WE ALL. It is, and always has been a choice, free will, as you explain later on.

Quote:
That's what he was saying and you know this.
No, he is playing word games, and I am not falling for it. You wiill understand this, once you have been here a spell. He uses a different translation, which is biased for people who believe in UR, and allows them this illusion of belief.

Quote:
Just as Christ's decision controlled the redemption of man and much more.
Christ didn't control the redemption of man. Obeying the Father perfectly, even by His own blood, allowed us to be reconciled to Father, and this based upon faith and repentence and submission. This is what controlled the redemption of man. It was God's plan, from the beginning. And I would venture to say,,,this was the contengent plan, IF ADAM FELL. I once WAS alive, APART from the Law. But when the Law came, I sinned and fell.

See, it is the same plan for us all. We, who believe in God, ARE Adam. We are either IN the first Adam, or the Second Adam. Here is a question for you. Do you believe prior to Jesus that EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH was IN the FIRST ADAM? Well, if so, how could this be, since the covenant started with Adam? It followed an exact lineage, as shown in both Matthew, and Luke. One is based upon the promise given to Abraham, and the other ends up with Adam, who was a Son of God.

Quote:
But yes, of course God is in ultimate controll... of things he wishes to be in control of, which is not every thing or decision here on earth, or in heaven.
Agreed.

Quote:
In order for love to exist there has to be free will.
Also agree.

Quote:
If there is no such thing thing as free will then there is no such thing as us loving God.
Agreed.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
So, the Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first humans and their sons were Cain and Abel who were the third and fourth humans, respectively.
It says Adam was the first 'man', and Eve the first 'woman'. Not the first human beings.

Quote:
After Cain killed Abel, god cast him out of Eden and gave him the mark so that he would not be killed by the other peoples of the world who knew that he was outlawed from Eden.
Yep. You will find that a TON of incest would have had to happen if this supposed doctrine is truth. We know now, it isn't, and that humans have been around a lot longer than Adam and Eve.

Quote:
However, if Adam and Eve were the first humans, then how could there already be existing peoples of the world that Cain needed protection from?
See, a catch 22. You are right for questioning this.

Quote:
How does this make sense???
It doesn't when read in a preconceived notion.

Quote:
The Bible clearly references pre-existing civilizations that existed prior to and concurrent with Adam and Eve.
As does numerous other historical facts, all predating Adam and Eve.

See, they have to change the dating system to try and make it all fit. Then you have incest beyong belief. Then you have other factors, like genetic, origins, and even distinct genetic characteristics, like skin color, hair color, etc. How would a Chinese genetic trait found in the Asain countries, ALL come from a man who lived 6000 years ago? How about the Black Man? Would the religious establishment try and make the claim it was the 'mark of Cain'? Well, they have.

It is all nonsense, and I am glad you are questioning this. Seek the answers from above, and throw out everything you know, going to God personally for the answers. He provides them. And they will make perfect sense to you.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Did Convenient doctrine you have there. Once again, you are failing at proper understanding of covenants, plans of redemptions, and final outcomes based upon your preconceived doctrines. You MUST, as well as Young, convert the Word to mean something it doesn't.
Here is Youn's Literal translation:
1 Corinthians 15:44-48 YLT (44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised a
spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body; (45)
so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living
creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, (46) but that which is
spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is
spiritual. (47) The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man
is the Lord out of heaven; (48) as is the earthy, such are also the
earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly;

And here is the Concordant Literal:

1 Corinthians 15:44-48 CLV (44) It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a
spiritual body. (45) If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul: the last
Adam a vivifying Spirit." (46) But not first the spiritual, but the soulish,
thereupon the spiritual." (47) The first man was out of the earth, soilish;
the second Man is the Lord out of heaven." (48) Such as the soilish one
is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One,
such are those also who are celestials."

BTW, "man" in Greek is "human". Adam was the first human.


I fail to see how Young's disproves the Concordant Version.

the first man Adam
[h]ο πρωτος ανθρωπος αδαμ

Notice Paul does not say the first adam Adam in Greek.

Second man Christ

Paul does not say "the last ανθρωπος but rather "the last αδαμ"

I don't care if "Adam" means "human" in Hebrew. Paul wrote this in Greek.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I don't care if "Adam" means "human" in Hebrew. Paul wrote this in Greek.
Umm, ok.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually he is correct. The nephilim were mortals.

Gen 6:4 Now the distinguished [nephilim] come to be in the earth in those days, and, moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of the elohim to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the masters, who are from the eon, mortals with the name.

Adam was a son of elohim. He too was a mortal. They were mortal, They were not immortal angels or spirit beings. They were mortal flesh and blood humans.
Adam was indeed created as a "son of god" of the human being kind [and got cast down and out of Eden, in the rapha/fall, as Psalms 82 states, in the Hebrew, and was no longer a son of God, and was dead in spirit], but the angels, called watchers, who were judges over earth, were created as spirit beings, without flesh bodies, who can take human being type bodies when they appear on earth [Genesis 18].

They who took oaths to not return to their heavenly "estate" [Jude also repeats that fact], and to remain in the bodies that look like man/Adam were formerly in spirit bodies of immortality, in heaven, but the flesh bodies they appeared in, as Watchers on earth, and committed fornication in, are doomed to eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire, and they were chained in Sheol below, with their coming judgment of doom already written through Enoch, in those bodies that look like Adam.
They were chained, until then, in Sheol, as a strong warning to other Watchers to not fall for the same temptations to commit fornication with daughters of Adam, says Jude.
Their children -offspring of fornication with daughters of Adam [as the Hebrew states in Genesis 6:2]- were born in flesh bodies that were not immortal, though the Watchers wanted their offspring to live forever; the doom was that they would not, and would not even get the bodies got by fornication with daughters of Adam back. "They are the dead, they shall not rise". The same nephillim spirits, disembodied, are roaming earth, tormenting the flesh of Adam offspring until the day they are gathered up by angels and cast into the Lake of Fire. They are the demons, and they torment Adam flesh because they are evil spirits whose primal origin was from the fallen watcher spirits and Adam flesh.

Enoch explains this and lays the foundation for the doctrine out, which is never relaid in the OT or new, for it is fact that all the writers of the OT and NT draw upon.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:17 PM
 
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And yet the Bible says the nephilim (noted humans) were mortals.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

I don't care if "Adam" means "human" in Hebrew. Paul wrote this in Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:47
πρῶτος prōtos first
ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos human being
ἐκ ek out of/from
γῆ earth

χοϊκός choļkos earthling

δεύτερος deuteros second
ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos human being
κύριος kyrios LORD
ἐκ ek out of/from

οὐρανός ouranos heaven

The first man is Adam. We are all Adam, and we are all the one old man, Adam: the dead in spirit, fallen, son of God; and we all have our being out of Adam, and we were all created as seed in his loins -before even the female Adam was "cloned" out of the head/firstborn of our race of human being kind.

The second Man is the LORD from heaven in a New Creation human being body of flesh. His New Man body is that "New Thing" in the earth, when a woman compassed a "geber", as Jeremiah prophesied.

As far as the Father is concerned, there is only one "Son of God of the human being kind", that is, the New Man flesh of the LORD from heaven. IF we who are dead in the one old man, Adam, are born again into His One Living Spirit, then we also shall be regenerated in our old Man Adam flesh in the resurrection and or at the rapture, into the New Man flesh image of the "Second Man".

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