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Here's a question that haunts me: WHY are there verses which suggest or say outright that God is saving everyone, while at the same time there are verses which suggest or outright say He is not. Here's another: most of the universalist verses come from Paul. One comes from John the Apostle, though his is a little more easily rationalized to point either toward universalism or away from it. Now the question: was Paul speaking for God when he kept insisting that God will have ALL men saved? Jesus never said ALL men would be saved. Quite the opposite, Jesus was pretty plain when He said that only a few would be saved, while the wicked would be destroyed utterly so that nothing of them remained except some burnt chaff which would then scatter to the winds(apollumi) John the Baptist pretty much said the same thing in plain language. How can both be true? Or was Paul preaching a false doctrine? Clearly you cannot have Jesus saying, "Only a few enter through the narrow gate" and Paul saying, "All enter through the narrow gate." Like 2 +2 equaling 22, it just doesn't add up.
Thrillobyte, to share, Jesus said that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and He was sent to be the Savior of the world. What does this mean? There were certain things that He was talking about that the Jewish nation was looking forward too, one of them being inheriting the kingdom of God and participating in this glorious time prophesied about in the OT scriptures. Jesus told them that many would be excluded from this and would not be saved from the coming wrath of God. Many would not be invited to enjoy the blessings associated with this glorious time that was promised. The Jewish people understood what He was talking about and Jesus also told them that He had other things to share with them, but that they could not bear them. Paul was specifically selected by Jesus to preach of God's grace to the Gentiles. And Paul received information as apostle, which He referred to as mysteries, one of them being the fact that the Gentiles were to be included in these blessings that the Jewish people looked forward to. There was to be one body comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles. Another mystery that Paul revealed to the church was the eventual reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ (Eph. 1). It is good to do a thorough study of when Paul wrote certain epistles and it is good to do a study on progressive revelation, which is something that I hope to do this summer. All things were not revealed at the same time. Paul did not preach false doctrine. God bless and peace.
Thrillobyte, to share, Jesus said that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and He was sent to be the Savior of the world. What does this mean? There were certain things that He was talking about that the Jewish nation was looking forward too, one of them being inheriting the kingdom of God and participating in this glorious time prophesied about in the OT scriptures. Jesus told them that many would be excluded from this and would not be saved from the coming wrath of God. Many would not be invited to enjoy the blessings associated with this glorious time that was promised. The Jewish people understood what He was talking about and Jesus also told them that He had other things to share with them, but that they could not bear them. Paul was specifically selected by Jesus to preach of God's grace to the Gentiles. And Paul received information as apostle, which He referred to as mysteries, one of them being the fact that the Gentiles were to be included in these blessings that the Jewish people looked forward to. There was to be one body comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles. Another mystery that Paul revealed to the church was the eventual reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ (Eph. 1). It is good to do a thorough study of when Paul wrote certain epistles and it is good to do a study on progressive revelation, which is something that I hope to do this summer. All things were not revealed at the same time. Paul did not preach false doctrine. God bless and peace.
Shana, I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around Jesus saying, "The gate is narrow and few find it" while Paul says, "The gate is narrow and ALL find it."
They were talking about two different times, Thrillobyte. One has to do with inheriting the kingdom and life during the ages and one has to do with restoration at the end of the ages. God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-26-2012 at 04:13 PM..
Shana, I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around Jesus saying, "The gate is narrow and few find it" while Paul says, "The gate is narrow and ALL find it."
You also have to bear in mind with God all things are possible, because when Jesus said something very similar to the narrow gate saying, by saying ......it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Peter said who then can be saved ?, Jesus answered with God all things are possible.
For the truth is The Good Shepherd leads us through to the path of life( the eye of the needle, the narrow gate, or whatever you desire to call it)The elitist Think they found it themselves.
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Now many people quote this verse form the KJV because they believe it is applicable to everyone in the FUTURE tense as well. Many want you to believe that it means that few shall find it EVER.
BUT NOT SO FAST! Let's take a closer look and see that those that teach that are either unlearned or deceiving us. The King James version is based on Greek text. Here is the STRONG's Numbers of that same verse so you can help follow:
Mat 7:14 BecauseG3754 straitG4728 is theG3588 gate,G4439 andG2532 narrowG2346 is theG3588 way,G3598 whichG3588 leadethG520 untoG1519 life,G2222 andG2532 fewG3641 there beG1526 that findG2147 it.G846
Notice that bolded part above showing the verb G2147. Let's look at that in the Greek:
I have bolded it above. Notice that V-PAP portion. That means this is a VERB, The first "P" means it is PRESENT Tense. That should tell you something right there. That is the SIGNIFICANT understanding of this verse. It means that when Jesus said this He was saying there is FEW FINDING IT (PRESENT TENSE), He was not saying Few will EVER Find it. (Which is what many want you to believe - which is in error.) So by analyzing the Greek text (source of the KJV) we can see the real meaning of this verse.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) translates it much closer to the source:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice that in the YLT it is expressed in a way to be understood as PRESENT tense (Present at the time it was stated obviously.)
Hope that helps.
Trettap, I get what you're saying about a translator's error applying the narrow gate passage to future generations instead of the immediate generation which it was originally intended for. That's always a possibility. My problem with that is what did Jesus want future generations to believe about going through the gate? Was this truism applicable only to the Jews? Only to the Jews of Jesus' generation? After the Gentiles inherited the blessings that were taken away from the Jews, did that then mean that everyone eventually gets through the narrow gate? There are a lot of important questions that arise, particularly the last one, when we take your stance. And it might be right, but I'm just wondering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
They were talking about two different times, Thrillobyte. One has to do with inheriting the kingdom and life during the ages and one has to do with restoration at the end of the ages. God bless and peace.
Shana, please elaborate a little. Which is which?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
You also have to bear in mind with God all things are possible, because when Jesus said something very similar to the narrow gate saying, by saying ......it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Peter said who then can be saved ?, Jesus answered with God all things are possible.
For the truth is The Good Shepherd leads us through to the path of life( the eye of the needle, the narrow gate, or whatever you desire to call it)The elitist Think they found it themselves.
pcamps, I think I get that you feel the narrow gate was applicable to the elitists of Jesus' day who thought themselves the only ones who would get through the narrow gate. If this is true, it seems to me Jesus could not have stated it worse, for if true it has been used so incorrectly over the 2 millenia that billions of people have died believing they were eternally lost because they didn't fit the Church's definition of what was needed to get through the narrow gate. Wouldn't Jesus have known that His words were going to be maligned so badly that they would deceive the vast majority of mankind since His death?
One has to do with inheriting the kingdom and life during the ages - Jesus
One has to do with restoration at the end of the ages - Paul (when He speaks of the reuniting of all in Christ, of all being subjected to Jesus, of the creation being delivered)
The elite few ( in their own eyes)think they found the gate by a confession of beleving in a historic Jesus and the bible. What is clearly evident when you listen to them is that they do not know Jesus Christ or understand the the things of God.
The gate to life is right between our lug holes, it is a right way of thinking( my ways and thoughts are not yours), this is what righteousness is. It is the key to entering in to the things of God.
And the reason only a few find it is because they are looking for it outside of themselves, and refuse to believe it's within us. Today you are accused of being a new ager for believing this, and Jesus taught it
Open for me the gates of righteousness; I will enter and give thanks to the LORD. This is the gate of the LORD through which the righteous may enter. Psalm 118:19-20
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