Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Whatever the penalty of sin is, Jesus Christ endured it to the full in order to become our Saviour. If the penalty of sin is either annihilation or endless punishment, Jesus Christ could not be the Saviour of anyone, for He was neither annihilated nor endlessly tormented. Christ died for our sins! If it were not for the death, the resurrection, and the present life of Jesus Christ, the final end of every human being would be death.
Trettap, I get what you're saying about a translator's error applying the narrow gate passage to future generations instead of the immediate generation which it was originally intended for. That's always a possibility. My problem with that is what did Jesus want future generations to believe about going through the gate? Was this truism applicable only to the Jews? Only to the Jews of Jesus' generation? After the Gentiles inherited the blessings that were taken away from the Jews, did that then mean that everyone eventually gets through the narrow gate? There are a lot of important questions that arise, particularly the last one, when we take your stance. And it might be right, but I'm just wondering.
Shana, please elaborate a little. Which is which?
pcamps, I think I get that you feel the narrow gate was applicable to the elitists of Jesus' day who thought themselves the only ones who would get through the narrow gate. If this is true, it seems to me Jesus could not have stated it worse, for if true it has been used so incorrectly over the 2 millenia that billions of people have died believing they were eternally lost because they didn't fit the Church's definition of what was needed to get through the narrow gate. Wouldn't Jesus have known that His words were going to be maligned so badly that they would deceive the vast majority of mankind since His death?
Hi Thrill. I just wanted you to have the correct understanding of the verse. But let's consider the many verse that speak to the annihilation of the wicked. That is true. The scriptures do indeed speak of that. And the wicked are indeed destroyed for the rest of eternity. But they are destroyed by giving them the FIRE of the Holy Spirit. Remember God stands as a refiner's fire and as Fuller's soap.
A refiner's fire PURIFIES the metal by removing the dross (wickedness). Fuller's soap is used to make a garment WHITE. So many times I have this verse used to preach eternal torment:
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
That verse speaks of a Lord that is going to make us clean. That is wonderful!
The passage about most going down the broad road has caused depression in me many a time. Going by the Bible I too cannot accept Universalism.
The flesh, the natural man, always goes down the wrong path. It also tries to enter the Kingdom of God by anyway it can, other than by Jesus. However, the flesh will never enter the Kingdom. We have scriptures word on that:
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This is true for the believer as well as the unbeliever.
I'm not really sure why this verse causes so much consternation and grief.
We should praise God for it. One day we will all be rid of the natural man and flesh.
When Jesus says:
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The word "them" and "you" and "ye" are speaking of the flesh, the natural and human nature of man. That part of man which works iniquity. Christ did not come to save that which works iniquity. Christ came to save that which was lost, the spirit of man, that spirit of man made in the image of God.
One of the luxuries of being retired is having the time to pursue studying the Bible. After many weeks of intense study on the topics of Universal redemption and annihilation I must conclude that Jesus said or inferred on more occasions than not that most of us would be lost--that is, that only a few would make it through the narrow door, which is, of course, Jesus Himself. I know He said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to Myself" but that doesn't make up for the two times He said "Many will take the broad road to destruction", "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord...", "The Good Shepherd Gives His Life (only) for His Sheep", "Unless you repent you will perish", etc. I think the word, "draw" implies maybe "attract" but certainly not draw as in irresistibly pull without power to resist. The bottom line is that Jesus warned more about missing the boat, then He did spreading sugar-coated niceties that everything was fine; that He had it all under control and we had nothing to worry about. In fact, we do have plenty to worry about and He didn't mince words letting us know on innumerable occasions.
The good news though, is that even if only a few find the way to heaven through the narrow door, we won't be suffering the torments of hell in the meantime. While we have debated innumerable times here about the three doctrines of eternal destiny, the overwhelming weight in terms of sheer numbers of verses falls to eternal destruction for the wicked. The Scriptures seem to heavily support soul-sleep until the final resurrection. It will be like precisely one second after those who are saved close their eyes in death they will awaken to the resurrection with new immortal bodies. The lost will later awaken in the same way to be thrown into the fire that destroys utterly. That is what the Scriptures indicate to me. If other feel differently I'd be interested in hearing your POV.
Thrillobyte,
I, like you, studied both of these doctrines intensely over the last few years. It definitely is unfortunate, but nonetheless, it is true. All you can do is pray for them. St. Gregory said: ""Almighty God on account of His loving kindness delights not in the torments of the unhappy, but on account of His justice. He is for ever unappeased by the punishment of the wicked."
Going down the broad road is not eliminated in the discussion of Christian Universalism. We believe that it has a higher purpose, just like in the case of the prodigal son. God bless and peace.
I have not read all this thread. I posted earlier in it. I keep seeing people say that Paul taught all will be saved. Someone else may have already brought this out but here is Pauls true meaning.
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:1-4
Pauls meaning is that God will have all men to be saved as in all KINDS OF MEN. Whether they be kings, or men of authority, or if they be small as in just the average little guy. He instructs to pray for the GREAT as well as THE SMALL.
All men. See the point? Not that God is promising to save every individual when Jesus/Yeshua has already told us that only FEW are actually going to be saved.
And just for general information I was baptized into the name of Jesus in a Church that taught Ultimate Reconciliation as the Pastor called it. He was a great man in my eyes teaching a lot of truth.
I have not read all this thread. I posted earlier in it. I keep seeing people say that Paul taught all will be saved. Someone else may have already brought this out but here is Pauls true meaning.
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:1-4
Pauls meaning is that God will have all men to be saved as in all KINDS OF MEN. Whether they be kings, or men of authority, or if they be small as in just the average little guy. He instructs to pray for the GREAT as well as THE SMALL.
All men. See the point? Not that God is promising to save every individual when Jesus/Yeshua has already told us that only FEW are actually going to be saved.
And just for general information I was baptized into the name of Jesus in a Church that taught Ultimate Reconciliation as the Pastor called it. He was a great man in my eyes teaching a lot of truth.
Yet sadly he missed God on that teaching.
You should have paid closer attention to the mood, voice, and tone of the message.
It's indicative of the truth: Will have ALL MEN.
You should have paid closer attention to the mood, voice, and tone of the message. It's indicative of the truth: Will have ALL MEN.
"An Active, ongoing result of a Previous Action."
Trouble is with this concept that it does not agree with the teachings of Yeshua.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
