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Matthew 25
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)
I believe that there is a higher purpose for the fire. When fire burns, it changes something into something else.
"To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply changed into a different form and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to change. P. Eby
Our God is a consuming fire.
God bless and peace.
I'm sorry Shana, but you are leaving out some very important facts.
The wicked will be consumed by God's consuming fire and will cease to exist for ever.
How do we know this? The words for ever mean:
Completed. eon/aion does mean an unspecified period of time, BUT a time until the process is completed.
Ends with death. eon/aion means to continue until death. Or the process ends with death. As in Exodus 21: 6 where it states a person who decides to remain a slave to his master will be his slave for ever; or until his death.
Irreversible. eon/aion means the process is irreversible. Or in other words the "judgment" will stand forever which means it will not be reversed. As the cities of S & G, they suffered eternal fire, turned to ashes and will never be cites again.
BTW, the punishment is eternal; punishing is not.
Note this passage:
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example to those that after should live ungodly. (2 Peter 2: 6)
This means God is not going to save the wicked as UR insists. These 2 cites were an example of the final judgment of the wicked. To cease to exist, never to be on the earth again.
Day/Night ends. eon/aion means day/night ends. Or til day/night no longer exist. Also shows there is an end of the punishing.
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example to those that after should live ungodly. (2 Peter 2: 6)
Mark 16: 11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
They have not been annihilated but are dead awaiting judgment.
Quote:
Ends with death.
Death is to be abolished one day. Please see 1 Corinthians 15 and
Isaiah 25: 6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Also please see Colossians 1
15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.
and this includes the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.
One day every knee shall bow and tongue shall confess Him, even swear allegiance to Him. And they will no longer be wicked.
Rejoice and be glad in it
God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-25-2012 at 10:46 PM..
One of the luxuries of being retired is having the time to pursue studying the Bible. After many weeks of intense study on the topics of Universal redemption and annihilation I must conclude that Jesus said or inferred on more occasions than not that most of us would be lost--that is, that only a few would make it through the narrow door, which is, of course, Jesus Himself. I know He said "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to Myself" but that doesn't make up for the two times He said "Many will take the broad road to destruction", "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord...", "The Good Shepherd Gives His Life (only) for His Sheep", "Unless you repent you will perish", etc. I think the word, "draw" implies maybe "attract" but certainly not draw as in irresistibly pull without power to resist. The bottom line is that Jesus warned more about missing the boat, then He did spreading sugar-coated niceties that everything was fine; that He had it all under control and we had nothing to worry about. In fact, we do have plenty to worry about and He didn't mince words letting us know on innumerable occasions.
The good news though, is that even if only a few find the way to heaven through the narrow door, we won't be suffering the torments of hell in the meantime. While we have debated innumerable times here about the three doctrines of eternal destiny, the overwhelming weight in terms of sheer numbers of verses falls to eternal destruction for the wicked. The Scriptures seem to heavily support soul-sleep until the final resurrection. It will be like precisely one second after those who are saved close their eyes in death they will awaken to the resurrection with new immortal bodies. The lost will later awaken in the same way to be thrown into the fire that destroys utterly. That is what the Scriptures indicate to me. If other feel differently I'd be interested in hearing your POV.
Thrillobyte, let's look closer at that verse:
Here is what it says in the King James version:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Now many people quote this verse form the KJV because they believe it is applicable to everyone in the FUTURE tense as well. Many want you to believe that it means that few shall find it EVER.
BUT NOT SO FAST! Let's take a closer look and see that those that teach that are either unlearned or deceiving us. The King James version is based on Greek text. Here is the STRONG's Numbers of that same verse so you can help follow:
Mat 7:14 BecauseG3754 straitG4728 is theG3588 gate,G4439 andG2532 narrowG2346 is theG3588 way,G3598 whichG3588 leadethG520 untoG1519 life,G2222 andG2532 fewG3641 there beG1526 that findG2147 it.G846
Notice that bolded part above showing the verb G2147. Let's look at that in the Greek:
I have bolded it above. Notice that V-PAP portion. That means this is a VERB, The first "P" means it is PRESENT Tense. That should tell you something right there. That is the SIGNIFICANT understanding of this verse. It means that when Jesus said this He was saying there is FEW FINDING IT (PRESENT TENSE), He was not saying Few will EVER Find it. (Which is what many want you to believe - which is in error.) So by analyzing the Greek text (source of the KJV) we can see the real meaning of this verse.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) translates it much closer to the source:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice that in the YLT it is expressed in a way to be understood as PRESENT tense (Present at the time it was stated obviously.)
Why does it matter to you if everyone gets into heaven or if only a select few are allowed in?
As long as you live your life in the proper way, then you should get into your heaven without any problem. Why would it matter to you if I get into heaven or not?
Why does it matter to you if everyone gets into heaven or if only a select few are allowed in?
As long as you live your life in the proper way, then you should get into your heaven without any problem. Why would it matter to you if I get into heaven or not?
Love thy neighbor, love your enemy.
That is what was commanded. That is the "proper way" as you mentioned above.
How can you love your neighbor if they are burning in torment forever?
Would be a pretty sad "heaven".
One can't be "soul-sleeping" when he is "seeing death".
Thus physical death to the believer is a "rest \ asleep" in the Lord. The body is only at rest in the grave, not the soul.
The Lord did not "soul-sleep" in the grave.
I think I got my terminology mixed up. I did say "soul-sleep", but I also said that I believe, per Ecclesiastes, that the soul dies and the spirit returns to God at death. This is a contradiction. Obviously the soul cannot be sleeping if it is dead. So my error. I do not endorse "soul-sleep". Perhaps a better way of putting it would be "the soul dies, the spirit returns to God and is put into hibernation for safe keeping until the resurrection when it is awakened, while simultaneously the body is resurrected and then changed into an immortal entity, whereupon the spirit is joined with it." However we slice and dice the terminology, my understanding is that the scriptures say that "in death there is no remembrance of Thee" which means very simply and without any room for debate that once a person dies no part of him/her has any memory of God, and this just simply could not be true if their spirit immediately takes up conscious residence in heaven.
[font=Calibri][font=Verdana]IThere are verses which suggest God is saving everyone and there are verses which could also suggest he is not saving everyone.
Here's a question that haunts me: WHY are there verses which suggest or say outright that God is saving everyone, while at the same time there are verses which suggest or outright say He is not. Here's another: most of the universalist verses come from Paul. One comes from John the Apostle, though his is a little more easily rationalized to point either toward universalism or away from it. Now the question: was Paul speaking for God when he kept insisting that God will have ALL men saved? Jesus never said ALL men would be saved. Quite the opposite, Jesus was pretty plain when He said that only a few would be saved, while the wicked would be destroyed utterly so that nothing of them remained except some burnt chaff which would then scatter to the winds(apollumi) John the Baptist pretty much said the same thing in plain language. How can both be true? Or was Paul preaching a false doctrine? Clearly you cannot have Jesus saying, "Only a few enter through the narrow gate" and Paul saying, "All enter through the narrow gate." Like 2 +2 equaling 22, it just doesn't add up.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-26-2012 at 01:40 PM..
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Now many people quote this verse form the KJV because they believe it is applicable to everyone in the FUTURE tense as well. Many want you to believe that it means that few shall find it EVER.
BUT NOT SO FAST! Let's take a closer look and see that those that teach that are either unlearned or deceiving us. The King James version is based on Greek text. Here is the STRONG's Numbers of that same verse so you can help follow:
Mat 7:14 BecauseG3754 straitG4728 is theG3588 gate,G4439 andG2532 narrowG2346 is theG3588 way,G3598 whichG3588 leadethG520 untoG1519 life,G2222 andG2532 fewG3641 there beG1526 that findG2147 it.G846
Notice that bolded part above showing the verb G2147. Let's look at that in the Greek:
I have bolded it above. Notice that V-PAP portion. That means this is a VERB, The first "P" means it is PRESENT Tense. That should tell you something right there. That is the SIGNIFICANT understanding of this verse. It means that when Jesus said this He was saying there is FEW FINDING IT (PRESENT TENSE), He was not saying Few will EVER Find it. (Which is what many want you to believe - which is in error.) So by analyzing the Greek text (source of the KJV) we can see the real meaning of this verse.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) translates it much closer to the source:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice that in the YLT it is expressed in a way to be understood as PRESENT tense (Present at the time it was stated obviously.)
Hope that helps.
There are still few finding it. However you would like to phrase it. Only god can find it, only the son of man can enter by the narrow gate.
As it is written;
"I said, you are gods ,sons of the most high."
"The One who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep."
"Only the one who comes from God has seen the Father."
Can you come from God? It is possible. If you follow the narrow path and enter by the narrow gate He will show you how He made it possible.
Love thy neighbor, love your enemy.
That is what was commanded. That is the "proper way" as you mentioned above.
How can you love your neighbor if they are burning in torment forever?
Would be a pretty sad "heaven".
Amen. Many people have turned away from God because of the teaching of an eternal, unlimited hell, for example, which paints God as a sadistic monster to many. God has called believers to be those involved in reconciliation, telling others the good news and telling them who Jesus is. Jesus is our Savior and Lord, not a sadistic monster. God bless and peace.
There are still few finding it. However you would like to phrase it. Only god can find it, only the son of man can enter by the narrow gate.
As it is written;
"I said, you are gods ,sons of the most high."
"The One who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep."
"Only the one who comes from God has seen the Father."
Can you come from God? It is possible. If you follow the narrow path and enter by the narrow gate He will show you how He made it possible.
Yes, there is still few finding it. But the good news is that the verse DOESN'T say that few will EVER find it as I showed. Someday, ALL shall have entered.
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I do not endorse "soul-sleep". Perhaps a better way of putting it would be "the soul dies, the spirit returns to God and is put into hibernation for safe keeping until the resurrection when it is awakened, while simultaneously the body is resurrected and then changed into an immortal entity, whereupon the spirit is joined with it." However we slice and dice the terminology, my understanding is that the scriptures say that "in death there is no remembrance of Thee" which means very simply and without any room for debate that once a person dies no part of him/her has any memory of God, and this just simply could not be true if their spirit immediately takes up conscious residence in heaven.
