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In my experience, there are two categories of Born Again Christians.
Type A: Saved by grace, thereafter showing forth good works because they have been changed and born again through Christ. But the word "works" tends to set off a "are you trying to earn you way into Heaven??" alarm bell in their minds. They are good people because they believe that a saved individual does so naturally. While they avoid writing anyone's "saved" experience off as fraudulent, they tend to look at behavior as the best evidence as to whether somebody is genuinely saved or just faked.
Type B: I once heard a silly tune used to describe them: "Born again so I can coast, no by works lest I should boast." These folks are what I would term "steel trap in the sky" born agains. For them, if Hitler or Stalin had been saved at some point prior to becoming mass-murderers, they're still bound for Heaven, period. If a person renounces Christianity and becomes a hardcore atheist and does everything they can to destroy Christianity, they're still bound for Heaven. For these people, once you are saved you can never be "unsaved" no matter what you do. You could be a serial killer or serial rapist or make a hobby of torturing people to death in the most horrible ways you can devise. It makes no difference. You're still saved no matter what. The steel trap in Heaven caught you and you can never escape your salvation.
About 90% of born again Christians -- the Type A ones -- will begin to question whether a person is saved if they start doing sick, twisted and depraved things. Likewise, among Type A's, you will find them actually striving to live better lives and looking for ways to improve themselves. Type A born again Christians do believe in works even though they don't think they do. Type B on the other hand do not believe that you a person's behavior has anything to do with their "saved" status. For them, a whole lot of wonderful and good people can and will burn in hell for eternity. A whole lot of truly terrible people will go to Heaven. Blessedly, Type B born agains are in the minority. They don't seem to think anyone ever needs to do anything good ever once they're saved.
If you're view aligns better with the Type B then there really isn't much more to say on the matter. Words cannot begin to express how much I disagree.
My views on the eternal security of the believer and on works have been sufficiently expressed on this thread as well as on others. I do expect people to actually objectively read and make an effort to understand what I write if they are going to address me regarding what I have written.
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As to your pet scriptures on the matter, I can sum up my response to every single one of them: You're reading them wrong. You're utterly failing to understand the intended meaning. You're taking a handful of scriptures and overriding the rest of the Bible rather than taking the Bible as a whole. But there's not much I can say that will ever convince you of that, so I won't bother going any further with it.
I'm sure that that is your response and your opinion.
I just told you what Jesus said concerning what is needed to have eternal life (John 6:27-29). Not works, not commandment keeping (though you should), just believe in Him.
In other words, you have hunted around to find a word or a phrase that excuses you from the real message of Jesus. ..h
What did the earliest Christians practice? What was the requirement for acceptance in the community after baptism? LIVING CHRISTIAN LIFE!!! NOT being saved and kicking back. LIVING a Christian life!
I've spent enough time on this thread. Below is a one hour class on the eternal security of the believer by Dr. Robert Dean of West Houston Bible Church. It's part of his salvation series which is provided in the second link. Listen to it or to the entire series if you wish. If you disagree then you disagree.
One last thing to point out though is that the issue of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus versus salvation by works is not a trivial issue. It is of supreme importance. If you have never simply trusted in Christ alone for eternal life, but are instead trying to earn your eternal salvation by working for it, then you have not been saved and remain under condemnation. Works are legitimate as a part of the spiritual life of a believer, but you cannot earn eternal salvation by those works.
Again, I have spent enough time on this thread. I'm not here to endlessly debate. I've provided information in my posts on this thread verifying from the Bible that eternal life is freely given by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and that the believer is eternally secure. What you people do with that information is your business.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-06-2015 at 01:13 AM..
One last thing to point out though is that the issue of salvation by grace through faith in Christ Jesus versus salvation by works is not a trivial issue. It is of supreme importance. If you have never simply trusted in Christ alone for eternal life, but are instead trying to earn your eternal salvation by working for it, then you have not been saved and remain under condemnation. Works are legitimate as a part of the spiritual life of a believer, but you cannot earn eternal salvation by those works.
One more time: this is a false dichotomy and there is no one here that thinks that salvation is earned by works. What you fail to address is the issue you call "lordship salvation" other than by the patently false representation that if there are conditions to receiving the gift of salvation is is not a free gift. The condition for receiving the gift is a commitment to a new way of living.
1. We can lose it by turning back to serious sin and not repenting.
2. We can reject Jesus, and not turn back from that rejection.
3. We can lose it by rejecting the leading of the Holy Spirit,intentionally or even dissing it as in blaspheming.
4. We can lose it by turning Apostate.
Obedience, as a level, would be what we can reasonable do, and more with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Now some may say that if someone did the above 4 (short list) they were never really saved. That is simply a way to avoid dealing with the reality we can lose it by rejecting it. If some were never saved,but said they were, believed they were, told they were but turn from it, then no one can truly be saved in their own eyes or anyone else'.
Salvation is not static as in a one time event, it is an ongoing event. No one can take it from us, but we can throw it away.
A great post
You also back up what Jesus said in Matt. 10:[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Seems to me that if you believe in Him, you will not merely believe "in him" but that you will believe what he teaches. And He teaches that we should keep His commandments. Otherwise, your belief is mere lip-service.
Kathryn, Thanks for your great post which is right on the pointl
1. We can lose it by turning back to serious sin and not repenting.
So Jesus will go against God's commands and he will "lose" those that he promised to keep?
What does "turning back to serious sin" mean? Can you give me a definitive example?
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2. We can reject Jesus, and not turn back from that rejection.
Funny....again--Jesus said otherwise. He said he would not lose any that the Father gave him. That means that we cannot turn away from him any more than a sheep can wander away from a good shepherd that keeps him in the fold.
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3. We can lose it by rejecting the leading of the Holy Spirit,intentionally or even dissing it as in blaspheming.
Again...Jesus said otherwise.
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4. We can lose it by turning Apostate.
Nope....Jesus said otherwise.
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Obedience, as a level, would be what we can reasonable do, and more with the help of the Holy Spirit.
So, salvation is dependent upon us to be obedient? Is that your position?
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Now some may say that if someone did the above 4 (short list) they were never really saved.
Yah. That's what John said (1 John 2:19) Funny how scripture seems to agree with us, isn't it?
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That is simply a way to avoid dealing with the reality we can lose it by rejecting it.
The Bible simply doesn't teach that reality.
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If some were never saved,but said they were, believed they were, told they were but turn from it, then no one can truly be saved in their own eyes or anyone else'.
Yet, John wrote that we can know for sure that we are (1 John 5:13). Weird, huh?
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Salvation is not static as in a one time event, it is an ongoing event. No one can take it from us, but we can throw it away.
So it's not really Jesus that saves, but it's Jesus plus you?
So Jesus will go against God's commands and he will "lose" those that he promised to keep?
Which refers to this passage:
John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
But you're putting your own spin on this passage. At what point are we given to Christ by God? You are a Born Again Christian so of course you will say that this occurs at the instant a person is "saved." But it never said that.
I prefer to think more along the same lines as Wardendresden. We should do our best and live the best lives that we can. When are Christ's sheep "safely gathered in" and no longer capable of being lost? Probably when we die or sometime thereafter. I think you can put yourself onto the straight and narrow path that will lead to eternal life, but it is a path and not a single step at one instant of time. And no it's not about earning your way to Heaven. It's about doing your best and stumbling and falling and failing a lot. I cannot put together even one day lived perfectly. I'm still 100% dependent on Christ. But I think he expects more from his sheep than to turn in the general direction of the Gates of Heaven for one instant in time in order to get there. I think we remain in a "saved" state as we refuse to give up and keep trying. But I don't think God is going drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of Heaven.
It's all silly anyways. If Born Again Christians were so thoroughly against works, they'd never ever ever do anything good for the rest of their lives for fear of being guilty of trying to "earn their way into heaven." Their church-going would be never mention doing good deeds, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, except to avoid doing such things. And Born Again Christians would of necessity be the worst human beings possible -- all because they have to avoid "earning their way into heaven."
We both know perfectly well that this isn't true. You and yours believe in works. You just think you don't.
John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
But you're putting your own spin on this passage. At what point are we given to Christ by God? You are a Born Again Christian so of course you will say that this occurs at the instant a person is "saved." But it never said that.
Ephesians says that Christians are predestined from the foundations of the world.
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I prefer to think more along the same lines as Wardendresden. We should do our best and live the best lives that we can. When are Christ's sheep "safely gathered in" and no longer capable of being lost? Probably when we die or sometime thereafter.
What you prefer to think doesn't really truth though, does it?
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I think you can put yourself onto the straight and narrow path that will lead to eternal life, but it is a path and not a single step at one instant of time. And no it's not about earning your way to Heaven. It's about doing your best and stumbling and falling and failing a lot. I cannot put together even one day lived perfectly. I'm still 100% dependent on Christ. But I think he expects more from his sheep than to turn in the general direction of the Gates of Heaven for one instant in time in order to get there. I think we remain in a "saved" state as we refuse to give up and keep trying.
The Bible disagrees. There are a myriad of passages stating that in our natural state we hate God, are at war with him, etc. None of us can claim to seek after God...not one of us.
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But I don't think God is going drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of Heaven.
I agree. The good news is that he regenerates us and changes our hearts.
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It's all silly anyways. If Born Again Christians were so thoroughly against works, they'd never ever ever do anything good for the rest of their lives for fear of being guilty of trying to "earn their way into heaven." Their church-going would be never mention doing good deeds, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, except to avoid doing such things. And Born Again Christians would of necessity be the worst human beings possible -- all because they have to avoid "earning their way into heaven."
We both know perfectly well that this isn't true. You and yours believe in works. You just think you don't.
The Bible tells us that we are to do good works out of love for God. We don't do those works to EARN salvation (lest we be able to boast), but we do them because we love God.
if that person has believed the proposition that Christ died for his sins and rose again with the result that he places his trust in Him, then he has been born again and is eternally secure.
"Born again" is about a CHANGE, and in other places which you choose to ignore, a PART of that change is a commitment to a new way of life.
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