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Perhaps you could correct a rather negative impression you give whenever anyone speaks of the importance of doing good work in the Christian life. Instead of challenging as to how much is "required," point out that they don't "buy" anything, but are a hallmark of the Christian life and that we need to be "spurring" each other in "love and good deeds." How DO you "spur" your congregation to "love and good deeds?"
I was responding to a person that was arguing that we keep our salvation by doing good works. In light of that, one must ask the question -- how much is required in order to keep it.
Yes--Christians SHOULD do good works...but we are not saved, nor do we need to continue to maintain our salvation by doing so.
Yes, a person is saved when he accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Now being our Lord, which means master, we are also expected to obey him and his father's will, which includes the works of obedience and salvation. You take ALL the verses that apply to get the correct picture not just the oens that favor a point of view. being saved by grac and faith without works, do not contradict, they give the fuller meaning of what real faith involves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Do you believe that we lose our salvation by not obeying? How does that work? What level of obedience is required?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I was responding to a person that was arguing that we keep our salvation by doing good works. In light of that, one must ask the question -- how much is required in order to keep it.
Yes--Christians SHOULD do good works...but we are not saved, nor do we need to continue to maintain our salvation by doing so.
No, you were responding to a person who clearly stated that works did not save, but were a part of the commitment that a person makes when he comes to Christ. You make that same mistake quite often.
No, you were responding to a person who clearly stated that works did not save, but were a part of the commitment that a person makes when he comes to Christ. You make that same mistake quite often.
It's certainly possible I misunderstood. I've discussed it with this poster in the past, and I'm under the impression that he meant that one that did not have those works is not saved. That's the point I was addressing. Again...if I read it wrong...or was misrepresenting his position, I humbly apologize. We are saved by grace through faith. Even if there is NO WORKS or obedience present...such a person can still be saved.
I was responding to a person that was arguing that we keep our salvation by doing good works. In light of that, one must ask the question -- how much is required in order to keep it.
No, Vizio. One must not necessarily ask that question. As a matter of fact, if you ask it, it implies that you want to make sure you don't do any more than is supposedly "required." It reminds of me a high school student who asks his teacher how many points he has to get on the final exam in order to pass. If the teacher says, "60 out of 100 will give you a passing grade," the student works just hard enough to get 60 points.
Why do you think those of us who believe in the importance of faithfulness to Jesus Christ is to be quantifiably measured? When we stand before God to be judged, He isn't going to put your sins on one side of the scale and your good works on the other and then see which one weighs the most. He's going to look at your heart, at your commitment. That isn't all that complicated, and I'm sure that if you wanted to understand the concept, you're intelligent enough to be able to. Are you genuinely desirous of living a life wherein your focus is on lifting up your fellow man and on letting the goodness of your heart shine through in such a way that your Father in Heaven will be glorified through your actions? If you are, then is "enough." If you're not, it isn't.
I was responding to a person that was arguing that we keep our salvation by doing good works. In light of that, one must ask the question -- how much is required in order to keep it.
Yes--Christians SHOULD do good works...but we are not saved, nor do we need to continue to maintain our salvation by doing so.
Jumping back into a fray I don't enjoy that much, I have to agree with godofthunder. I think no one "earns" their way to Heaven. On the other hand I don't believe there are any real Christians who FAIL to do the good works that God preordained for them to do.
It's the "carnal" Christian that disgusts me. If Jesus brings only those near to Him who are saved, then what about Judas. Is he going to Heaven as a "carnal" Christian? And if He chose Judas knowing he was a "demon," then where in the New Testament is there a single individual who could be characterized as a carnal Christian?
My personal Christian experience is that I simply cannot keep from looking at how to be a servant to my fellow human beings even as Jesus served as the Son of Man. I can't escape that pull and I have literally attempted to do so. It is my conviction that no one born again can escape conviction by the Holy Spirit to serve the one they have chosen to call Lord. At the point of a real surrender to Christ we no longer own ourselves. He has become our Lord and Master and exercises His lordship in our lives. That's why His children are known not by their proclamation of faith, but by the works they do. They can do no other. If they can they have not really found Christ. They are the seed that falls on the rocky soil or that which springs up but the weeds spring up choking off the truth.
Born again means being in a family from which God will not let you go. There are no carnal Christians regardless of Paul's misuse of the word carnal. They will know you belong to Him by the works you (WILL) do.
No, Vizio. One must not necessarily ask that question. As a matter of fact, if you ask it, it implies that you want to make sure you don't do any more than is supposedly "required." It reminds of me a high school student who asks his teacher how many points he has to get on the final exam in order to pass. If the teacher says, "60 out of 100 will give you a passing grade," the student works just hard enough to get 60 points.
Why do you think those of us who believe in the importance of faithfulness to Jesus Christ is to be quantifiably measured? When we stand before God to be judged, He isn't going to put your sins on one side of the scale and your good works on the other and then see which one weighs the most. He's going to look at your heart, at your commitment. That isn't all that complicated, and I'm sure that if you wanted to understand the concept, you're intelligent enough to be able to. Are you genuinely desirous of living a life wherein your focus is on lifting up your fellow man and on letting the goodness of your heart shine through in such a way that your Father in Heaven will be glorified through your actions? If you are, then is "enough." If you're not, it isn't.
An excellent post, Kathryn. As you, a Mormon, have a better understanding than the hyper-grace leaders who do not understand the words of Jesus in Matt. 7:[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but .
It's certainly possible I misunderstood. I've discussed it with this poster in the past, and I'm under the impression that he meant that one that did not have those works is not saved. That's the point I was addressing. Again...if I read it wrong...or was misrepresenting his position, I humbly apologize. We are saved by grace through faith. Even if there is NO WORKS or obedience present...such a person can still be saved.
While that is theoretically possible, when the rubber meets the road it is not going to happen, so what is the point in the distinction? When the only example that can be given is that of the thief on the cross, all emphasizing the position without stressing the commitment to live in love can do is make some who think they believe the correct doctrine comfortable in not doing anything to demonstrate their position in Christ. So, back to the question, how do you "spur" your congregation "to love and good deeds?"
Last edited by nateswift; 03-08-2015 at 08:38 AM..
While that is theoretically possible, when the rubber meets the road it is not going to happen, so what is the point in the distinction? When the only example that can be given is that of the thief on the cross, all emphasizing the position without stressing the commitment to live in love can do is make some who think they believe the correct doctrine comfortable in not doing anything to demonstrate their position in Christ. So, back to the question, how do you "spur" your congregation "to love and good deeds?"
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I am sure it does, nate!!
