Many Created, But Few Saved. (doctrine, believers, scriptures, pray)
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well if you believe in the inspiration of the apocrypha I will not discuss with you, I accept your opinion. However you should accept that I do not consider the apocryphal writings to have any authority.
I'm sure you count yourself amongst the saved, especially since you have informed us all that you never sin....(except that if you DO sin, it's a "sin of ignorance").
I'm sure you count yourself amongst the saved, especially since you have informed us all that you never sin....(except that if you DO sin, it's a "sin of ignorance").
LOL....
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Everyone sins....and Verna is no exception no matter what she professes.
I haven't examined 2nd Esdras and I think the Greek text is not preserved (only Latin as far as I know), but I've read that Clement of Alexandria who was an universalist considered this book to be inspired, this made me a bit wondering
@ Verna Perry despite our different opionions, I have read that 2nd Esdras more likely teaches annihilation then endless torment, had you read it carefully and would you agree that it might be understood that way? - I don't want to examine it on my own.
The book of Enoch is not explicit on this issue in its preserved Greek text as far as I was able to check it.
I haven't examined 2nd Esdras and I think the Greek text is not preserved (only Latin as far as I know), but I've read that Clement of Alexandria who was an universalist considered this book to be inspired, this made me a bit wondering
@ Verna Perry despite our different opionions, I have read that 2nd Esdras more likely teaches annihilation then endless torment, had you read it carefully and would you agree that it might be understood that way? - I don't want to examine it on my own.
The book of Enoch is not explicit on this issue in its preserved Greek text as far as I was able to check it.
Anihillation is taught in scripture, but it is misunderstood as to how it applies to the destiny of mankind.
Some who want to defend the power of mans will over God then take examples of the bible and make them out to be special cases, further reducing scripture to cause many passages to be meaningless.
Saul for instance, I bring it up a lot because it is cast aside as meaningless because Saul was a special case, while I do not think the intention is to render passages to no effect, this is what happens when people defend a thought in defense of the negative instead of the truth of the positive which is the power of God.
Saul was anihillated, he is no more, gone forever kaput. Saul will; NEVER enter the kingdom, Saul will never enter heaven.
But the story Paul is the example of how anihillation applies. The idea of eternal torment simply has been mens hearts advancing a point of view through applying abstract terms incorrectly.
(1) Many created, but few saved. (6) He asketh why God destroyed His own works, (26) and prayeth God to look upon the people which only serve Him. (41) God answereth that all seed commeth not to God, (52) and that glory is prepared for Him and such like.
1 And He answered me, saying, The Most High hath made this world for many, but the world to come for few.
2 I will tell thee a similitude, Esdras, As when thou askest the earth, it shall say unto thee, that it giveth much mold wherof earthen vessels are made, but little dust that gold cometh of: even so is the course of this present world.
3 There may be many created, but few shall be saved.
4 So answered I and said, Swallow then down my soul, understanding, and devour wisdom.
5 For thou hast agreed to give ear, and art willing to prophesy for thou hast no longer space then only to live.
6 O Lord, if Thou suffer not thy servant that we may pray before thee, and Thou give us seed unto our heart, and culture to our understanding, that there may come fruit of it, how shall each man live that is corrupt, who beareth the place of man?
7 For Thou art alone, and we all one workmanship of Thine hands, like as Thou hast said.
8 For when the body is fashioned now in the mother's womb, and Thou givest it members, Thy creature is preserved in fire and water, and nine months doeth Thy workmanship endure Thy creature which is created in her.
9 But that which keepeth, and is kept, shall both be preserved: and when the time cometh, the womb preserved, delivereth up the things that grew in it.
10 For thou hast commanded out of the parts of the body, that is to say, out of the breast's milk to be given, which is the fruit of the breasts,
11 That the thing which is fashioned, may be nourished for a time, till Thou disposest it to Thy mercy.
12 Thou broughtest it up with Thy righteousness, and nourishedst it in Thy Law, and reformed it with Thy judgement.
13 And Thou shalt mortify it as Thy creature, and quicken it as Thy work.
14 If therefore Thou shalt destroy him which with so great labor was fashioned, it is an easy thing thing to be ordeined by Thy Commandment, that the thing which was made might be preserved.
15 Now therefore, Lord, I will speak (touching man in general, Thou knowest best) but touching Thy people, for whose sake I am sorry,
16 And for Thine inheritance, for whose cause I mourne, and for Israel, for whom I am heavy, and for Jacob, for whose sake I am troubled:
17 Therefore will I begin to pray before Thee, for myself, and for them: for I see the falls of us that dwell in the land.
18 But I have heard the swiftness of the Judge which is to come.
19 Therefore hear my voice, and understand my words, and I shall speak before Thee: this is the beginning of the words of Edras, before he was taken up: and I said:
20 O Lord, Thou that dwellest in everlastingness, which beholdest from above, things in heaven, and in the air,
24 O hear the prayer of Thy servant, and give ear to the petition of Thy creature.
26 O look not upon the sins of Thy people: but on them which serve Thee in truth.
27 Regard not the wicked inventions of the heathen: but the desire of those that keep Thy Testimonies in afflictions.
28 Think not upon those that have walked fainedly before Thee: but remember them, which according to Thy will have known Thy fear.
29 Let it not be Thy will to destroy them, which have lived like beasts: but to look upon them that have clearly taught Thy Law.
30 Take Thou no indignation at them which are deemed worse than beasts: but love them that always put their trust in Thy righteousness, and glory.
33 For the just which have many good works layed up with Thee, shall out of their own deeds receive reward.
34 For what is man that Thou shouldest take displeasure at him? or what is a corruptible generation, that Thou shouldest be so bitter toward it?
35 For in truth there is no man among them that be born, but but he hath dealt wickedly, and among the faithfull, there is none that hath not done amiss.
36 For in this, O Lord, Thy righteousness, and Thy goodness shall be declared, if Thou be merciful unto them which have not the confidence [substance] of good works.
37 Then answered He me, and said, Some things hast thou spoken aright, and according unto thy words it shall be
38 For indeed I will not think on the dispositon of them which have sinned before death, before judgement, before destruction.
39 But I will rejoice over the dispensation of the righteous, and I will remember also their pilgrimage, and the salvation, and the reward that they shall have.
40 Like as I have spoken now, so shall it come to pass.
41 For as the husbandman soweth much seed upon the ground, and planteth many trees, and yet the thing that is sowen good in his season, commeth not up, neither doeth all that is planted take root: even so is it of them that are sowen in the world, they shall not all be saved.
42 I answered then, and said, If I have found grace, let me speak.
43 Like as the husbandsmans seed perisheth, if it come not up, and receive not the rain in due season, or if there come too much rain and corrupt it:
44 Even so perisheth man also which is formed with Thy hands, and is called Thine own image, because Thou art like unto him, for whose sake Thou hast made all things, and likened him unto the husbandmans seed.
45 Be not wroth with us, but spare Thy people, and have mercy upon Thine own inheritance: for Thou art merciful unto Thy creature.
46 Then answered He me, and said, Things present are for the present; and things to come, for such as be to come.
47 For thou commest far short, that thou shouldest be able to love My creature more than I: but I have ofttimes drawen nigh unto thee, and unto it, but never to the unrighteous.
48 In this also thou art marvelous before the Most High;
49 In that thou hast humbled thyself as it becometh thee, and hast not judged thyself worthy to be much glorified among the righteous.
50 For many great miseries shall be done to them, that in the latter time shall dwell in the world, because they have walked in great pride.
51 But understand thou, for thyself, and seek out the glory for such as be like thee.
52 For unto you is Paradise opened, the tree of life is planted, the time to come is prepared, plenteousness is made ready, a city is builded, and rest is allowed, yea perfect goodness and wisdom.
53 The root of evil is sealed up from you, weakness and the moth is hid from you, and corruption is fled into hell to be forgotten.
54 Sorrows are passed, and in the end is shewed the treasure of immortality.
55 And therefore ask thou no more questions concerning the multitude of them that perish.
56 For when they had taken liberty, they despised the Most High, thought scorn of His Law, and forsook His ways.
57 Moreover, they have troden down His righteous,
58 And said in their heart, that there is no God, yea and that knowing they must die.
59 For as the things aforesaid shall receive you, so thirst and pain are prepared for them; for it was not His will that men should come to nought.
60 But they which be created, have defiled the Name of Him that made them, and were unthankful unto Him which prepared life for them.
61 And therefore is My judgement now at hand.
62 These things have I not shewed unto all men, but unto thee, and a few like thee. Then answered I, and said,
63 Behold, O Lord, now hast Thou shewed me the multitude of the wonders which Thou wilt begin to do in the last times: but at what time, Thou hast not shewed me.
Apocrypha. Ch. 8.
Does using words like commeth and prayeth and answereth make you feel more spiritual? You do know its 2009 right?
So have we broken down to quoting non biblical pages to prove our points? Perhaps you should quote from the book of the dead, or the satanic verses(quran) since you cant establish you doctrinal preference from the bible itself ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-08-2009 at 12:43 PM..
It is true that everyone sins - however it is not true that everyone "commits" sin. The word commit implies knowledge and intent.
We may all sin ignorantly or unintentionally but those who are born of God do not commit sin. To deliberately commit sin is rebellion against God.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
HK
All things are lawful unto me, but not all things are expedient.
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