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Some of us actually use our brains and learned a long time ago that Hebrew and Greek do not translate into English well.
Do you read Greek? I do. Would you like to look at Romans 1 in the Greek?
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Homosexuality is an attraction, not a behavior. Orientation was not discovered until the 19th Century, so the Bible discusses it as much as it discusses cars and computers.
One could argue that there is still no real scientific proof for "orientation". In any event, the Bible defines the behavior as being wrong. Likewise, there are a lot of behaviors that our society condemns regardless of their addictions or desires. The Bible condemns sex outside of marriage--regardless of gender. That is...if you actually read it.
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I'm not amazed conservatives still carry a self-righteous attitude when they prove they lack the intelligence and education to approach the Bible honestly.
Who is the one that is saying that all conservatives are stupid? Who is the arrogant and self-righteous one?
Fiyero: No, I use the Nestle-Alland Novum Testamentum Graece. I took about 10 classes at the seminary in interpretation and translation of Koine Greek in the Greek New Testament. For most of those classes we translated directly from the Greek to English. In those classes I translated about 1/2 of Luke, Galatians, Phillippean, Collossians and Hebrews. I've also done much of Revelation, John's Gospel and 1 John on my own and regularly refer to the Greek text when I prepare sermons.
Hope this answers your question. I guess it could be regarded as a sarcastic comment, but I took it as a question.
Well, none of the books you just listed that you translated say anything about homosexuality. Same-sex behavior only exists in 5 verses in the entire Bible. 2 in the Old Testament, and 2 in the New, unless you count Timothy's duplicate use of the word in Corinthians to be 2 separate references, which would give you 5.
You are aware the word in question that was translated as "homosexuals" in 1958 in Corinthians was an invented word right? Paul made it up, meaning no seminary class or Koine Greek can tell you what it meant. The only resources we have, are a few uses of it after Paul in Greek literature, and all of those uses cite it as an economic crime. It's never included in lists of sexual crimes.
As others have noted, vice lists are sometimes organized into groups of "sins," with sins put together that have something to do with one another.9 First are listed, say, vices of sex, then those of violence, then others related to economics or injustice. Analyzing the occurrence of arsenokoités in different vice lists, I noticed that it often occurs not where we would expect to find reference to homosexual intercourse — that is, along with adultery (moicheia) and prostitution or illicit sex (porneia) — but among vices related to economic injustice or exploitation.
Do you read Greek? I do. Would you like to look at Romans 1 in the Greek?
Not if you're going to butcher the context and ignore the culture or scholar contributions to understanding Romans 1. Romans 1 itself says that the sin was pagan hedonism, not being gay. You're welcome to show me in Greek where Romans 1 says that being attracted to members of the same-sex is a sin though.
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One could argue that there is still no real scientific proof for "orientation".
Yes there is. Exactly what causes it is what is in question. That sexual orientation is largely biological, and unchosen is a fact. We have done PET scans of brains that show certain structures in gay brains are identical to structures of the opposite sex in straight brains (Gay men have an amygdala like that of straight women for example). Pretty solid evidence that orientation is hardwired.
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In any event, the Bible defines the behavior as being wrong.
It depends on what behavior. Find me a single reference in the Bible to 2 gay men engaging in consensual, same-sex relations that does not involve pagan worship practices. And of course, the Hebrew Bible never even mentions lesbians.
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Likewise, there are a lot of behaviors that our society condemns regardless of their addictions or desires. The Bible condemns sex outside of marriage--regardless of gender. That is...if you actually read it.
Well, then gays are presented with a huge biblical contradiction in light of 1 Corinthians 7. Guess I just have to assume the Bible is wrong.
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Who is the one that is saying that all conservatives are stupid? Who is the arrogant and self-righteous one?
Pointing out your unwillingness to admit you may be wrong, and to stop discriminating against people you do not understand does not make me arrogant.
One could argue that there is still no real scientific proof for "orientation".
Unfortunately, the one in this case would probably be wrong. A more recent study ( Karolinska Institute) comparing brain hemisphere sizes on a massive scale and found some very surprising similarities among homosexuals regard "asymmetry". Unlikely alot of other older proofs used to justify homosexuality, this one might actually be conclusive. There is not a genetic cause of this necessarily, but it is more of a developmental cause that would occur in the womb. So what do you know, maybe Lady Gaga was right about something ;p
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Originally Posted by TheoGeek
In any event, the Bible defines the behavior as being wrong. Likewise, there are a lot of behaviors that our society condemns regardless of their addictions or desires.
There's a possibility your correct here, though if the primary concern of these verses is idolatry (which you'll often see from Flyero's posts regarding the verses in question), it becomes an issue of cultural relativity and the a Law of Love issue as far as the actually wrongness is concerned. Not everyone agrees that Pauls commands for his Churches at the time (or "present crisis" 1 Corinthians 7:26) were meant to be blanket commands for everyone and all cultures and legalistically enforced. If this is the case, it becomes more of a matter of "is this a loving act or lifestyle" and/or why might God consider this unloving to him or anyone else." If you can conclusively make that case, you may be able to prove it on all levels.
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Originally Posted by TheoGeek
The Bible condemns sex outside of marriage--regardless of gender. That is...if you actually read it.
Actually that's somewhat questionable too and that's a whole other debate. If we started a discussion on issues surrounding this issue such as the Greek word behind fornication, what constitutes marriage, or what is actually considered law and sin requiring a blood sacrifice in regards to sexuality, that could potentially derail this thread.
OP: I have many gay friends and even some relatives and have no issues with their lifestyle, I am also bisexual myself. If you are going off of what is written in the Bible; it's my opinion, that this is spelled out in plain English -- whether people like it or not. The most obvious interpretation is that it's wrong....
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I am not saying I personally beleive homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenders are "wrong or a sin" because I don't. I am simply saying, reading the above it's blatantly obvious what is being conveyed.
I'm not sure I understand the point of debating this question. Whether it's a sin, or it isn't a sin, some people are still gay and they are going to decide for themselves whether or not, to be in a gay relationship.
Man doesn't decide what punishments will be, God does. It's none of our business whether or not a person chooses to risk their soul.
Even if being gay were a sin (not saying it is or it isn't) so what? There are many things that are considered sinful. Is being gay the worst sin in the Bible? I doubt it! So why do people choose to dwell on this question. I just don't get it.
What I don't get is why so-called Christians claim the Bible is 100% correct, but like cafeteria patrons, they pick and choose what parts of the Bible to follow and which to ignore. Isn't that called hypocrisy?
I don't think that qualifies as hypocrisy. But it might just be considered "warped".
I am guilty of doing that too, but at least (for the most part) I don't pick and choose in order to condemn others simply because I personally don't like what the person is choosing to do with their life.
If I have a negative opinion about a person, I don't blame it on what I learned in the Bible.
I'm not sure I understand the point of debating this question. Whether it's a sin, or it isn't a sin, some people are still gay and they are going to decide for themselves whether or not, to be in a gay relationship.
Man doesn't decide what punishments will be, God does. It's none of our business whether or not a person chooses to risk their soul.
Even if being gay were a sin (not saying it is or it isn't) so what? There are many things that are considered sinful. Is being gay the worst sin in the Bible? I doubt it! So why do people choose to dwell on this question. I just don't get it.
Well the OP asked a question about what the text says. (Some) people actually answered it, others debated because that's what they do . But yea I agree with you, it's really pointless in the end because it's not going to change folks and even if they did change based on what the Bible says or doesn't say -- what difference does it make to everyone else?
OP: I have many gay friends and even some relatives and have no issues with their lifestyle, I am also bisexual myself. If you are going off of what is written in the Bible; it's my opinion, that this is spelled out in plain English -- whether people like it or not. The most obvious interpretation is that it's wrong....
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I am not saying I personally beleive homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenders are "wrong or a sin" because I don't. I am simply saying, reading the above it's blatantly obvious what is being conveyed.
In the Bible, sometimes the reasons why something is said are every bit as important as that it was said. If the more liberal position on this issue is correct, the why of these verses is because these practices were associated with well known cults (the Cult of Cybele for example) of the time and their for were idolatrous practices that God "gave them over to." It was apart of their worship, it may not necessarily have been their born in sexual preference. That's how the argument goes anyways.
Also it should be noted about the Old testament Torah law is that many other things that we do on a daily basis like "wear clothes of Two different fabrics" were also considered abominations or at least used the same Hebrew word to describe them.
OP: I have many gay friends and even some relatives and have no issues with their lifestyle, I am also bisexual myself. If you are going off of what is written in the Bible; it's my opinion, that this is spelled out in plain English -- whether people like it or not. The most obvious interpretation is that it's wrong....
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I am not saying I personally beleive homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenders are "wrong or a sin" because I don't. I am simply saying, reading the above it's blatantly obvious what is being conveyed.
No it's not. I will copy what I posted to another forum member about those verses. The Hebrew is not the same as English. I will also remind you those laws were exclusively for the Israelites. Until we start executing people who work on Saturday too, citing the above verses is pure hypocrisy.
1) Why does,"as with a woman" exist in that verse? Why doesn't it say, "A man shall not lie with a man"? There is a conditional clause added for a reason, even if you only look at the English.
2) Are you aware that "to lie" with a man, and "to lie" with a woman are 2 entirely different words in Hebrew that don't mean the same thing? English does not make that distinction, and the first "to lie" is always used in the Bible to refer to forced/deceptive sexual behavior, for example, Lot's daughters getting him drunk and raping him is the same word "to lie" as in the above verse. Are you also aware, in Hebrew, the "as with a woman" phrase, while it doesn't make much sense in Hebrew or English, most closely means "in the lyings of woman". This may either refer to the crime being done in a woman's bed, or making a man submissive like would be acceptable to do to a woman since they were mere sexual property. This again, is a patriarchal cultural issue.
3) If you look at the way Leviticus is structured, you'll see that the verse in question is in an odd place. It makes an abrupt jump and specifically spells out that the verse in question is referring to the pagan worship practices of the Egyptians and Caananites. It's a direct reference to heterosexual men, going into the temples of the god Molech, drinking/doing drugs for a state of europhia, while paying the temple prostitutes for sex in order to bring favor from the fertility goddesses. It is 100% cultural, and the Israelites were forbidden from engaging in pagan prostitution, so as to not be connected to the Egyptians and Caananites ( a theme, well established in the Bible where God set the Israelites apart from the rest of society). See Deuteronomy 23 which specifically says Israelites are not to become temple prostitutes.
4) The word abomination in those verses does not mean that in Hebrew. In Hebrew, it's To'evah, which means taboo or ritually impure. This goes directly to the above reference that it was taboo for the Israelites to engage in the pagan practices of their surrounding cultures, specifically pagan prostitution.
5) If we look at how Jewish law works, in order for the charge of a crime to be brought forward, there had to be numerous conditions met. Jewish law hard arguably one of the most impossible burdens of proof in human history. It was essentially impossible to ever meet it. Consensual, same-sex relations in one's home would NEVER EVER meet the burden of proof under Jewish law. It had to be a public crime, with lots of witnesses, and only pagan prostitution would fit that charge. No man has ever been charged with the crime of homosexuality according to the Talmud.
And 6) There are 613 laws in the Torah. Christians might follow a dozen of them by accident. The Torah law was written for the Israelites, not for Christians. So until you start executing people who work on Saturdays, stoning rape victims and children who badmouth their parents, or view wearing mixed fabrics or entering the temple with eyeglasses as abominations, you have no business EVER citing Leviticus to condemn anyone. The Torah does not apply to anyone in the modern era except Haredi Jews, and even they can't follow the majority of it.
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. But yea I agree with you, it's really pointless in the end because it's not going to change folks and even if they did change based on what the Bible says or doesn't say -- what difference does it make to everyone else?