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What Jesus really showed him was that he wasn't keeping the commandments as he stated he was....he was living in idolatry to his money....thereby breaking the second commandment. Like I said....the cost to follow Jesus is high....and like the rich man, we may be asked to give up something we are idolizing in this life....things that are more important to us than God....that is where true obedience comes in and when God will truly know our hearts and whether we are for Him or against Him.
Amen!!! Once again the motivation of the heart or the true heart...
Well I am really pleased that you understand what I am saying. I don't at all believe that we can just "skate by" as Christians. In fact, I think we will not have any peace, joy or blessings on this earth living like that. We may get to heaven by the skin of our teeth but we will be miserable on the way. There are rewards for doing things the way God intended for us to do them and if we don't inquire of Him, spend time with Him and know what He wants us to do how will we know? We won't.. and we will live carnal miserable, ineffective lives.
And I do believe that some people think they are saved but perhaps they really are not. I am not going to judge anyone cause only God knows their heart but I would question a believer that doesn't ever bare any fruit in their life as a result of studying the Word.
I also believe that many Christians fail because their minds are not being "renewed". The bible is our "spiritual food" and without it we become atrophied. It is just like physical food, without it we wither and die...
Thanks for sharing..
Jesus was crystal clear on this point in the parables that he gave us....if there is No Fruit one is NOT SAVED....but fruit produced also has to be done with the right motives. If one is just doing good works to escape the outer darkness....that is exactly where they will end up.
I agree 100% with everything you said. I mainly responded because there are so many that teach works/obedience is not necessary at all....they think they can get by and be saved on their faith alone and this goes against everything Jesus taught. I've seen evidence of this teaching on this forum and it really and truly disturbs me because people are being misled to believe that nothing is required of them to keep and maintain their salvation other than believing in Christ. I have even seen posted on this forum that repentance is not required and I can't for the life of me find where they are getting this teaching from....we have to see our sin as God sees it and if we're not sorry or repentant for the things we've done...how can we even begin to change and grow in the Lord. We all grow and we all grow at different stages...some come into maturity faster than others...but we also cannot stagnate with just our faith alone...we have to move on from there to do the works of God.
Exactly...we all have to find our way to God in faith, prayer and in seeking forgiveness when necessary - it is definately not automatic. I pray to God every single day for this and of course his Love.
Exactly...we all have to find our way to God in faith, prayer and in seeking forgiveness when necessary - it is definately not automatic. I pray to God every single day for this and of course his Love.
and the Bible says that with fear and trembling we need to "work out" our own salvation until the day of Christ or perfection. (Phillipians 1:6) Now that is an entirely new thread...
The scripture that you quoted John 3:36 is talking about unbelievers or those who are not saved. You have taken the scripture totally out of context.. Sorry, that doesn't work.. Read the whole book of John next time Harold.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"Talking about unbelievers? What part of "He that believeth on the Son..." are you stumbling over?
When people are unable to answer arguments and want to avoid looking ignorant they often resort to the "OUT OF CONTEXT!" ploy.
They are easy to recognize because they offer no proof of their assertion that if one reads the verse in context it means something completely different.
Only a deceiver or fool would quote out of context. Since this is a serious charge and you are the accuser lets see you prove your statement.
"He who asserts must prove".
Here is the context:
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Prove that statement is taken out of context.
HK
Expecting a revealing silence....
Last edited by Harold Kupp; 01-09-2010 at 07:50 PM..
And I am saying that works can either be motivated from Love or a renewed mind or done to get something from God that He has already given under compulsion and with the wrong motivation. And that is all that John MacArthur is saying as well. Are you not seeing that? I see it.
Maybe you and I are not understanding one another? What am I not making myself clear with?[/quote]
What you said was - that man is justified without works by faith alone.
Let me refresh you memory:
Quote:
Your man says: "Justified...by faith alone"
My Man says: "Justified.....NOT by faith alone"
Here is your original quote from MacArthur"
JUSTIFIED:...Justification is a gracious gift God extends to the repentant, believing sinner,wholly apart from human merit or work.
MacArthur says wholly apart from work -
No amount of verbal waffling, spinning, dancing or other attempts at obfuscation is going to change the facts.
And Matthew 19:16 is out of context as well. The rich man wasn't a believer and had his trust in his riches instead of Christ because he was a rich man. Jesus was telling him to get his priorities straight and put Jesus first as Lord. Once again, read the chapter of Matthew and quote scripture in context Harold...
Is the light in your house getting dim - light a candle and look at the passage again.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Are you looking? The man called Jesus "Good Master". If he did not believe Jesus was who he said He was why would he call Him Master and then ask Him what he must do to have eternal life?
Of course, this is going to require you to think...
Really Raelyn - your OUT OF CONTEXT defense is ridiculous - every answer you offer attacks your own credibility.
And I am saying that works can either be motivated from Love or a renewed mind or done to get something from God that He has already given under compulsion and with the wrong motivation. And that is all that John MacArthur is saying as well. Are you not seeing that? I see it.
Maybe you and I are not understanding one another? What am I not making myself clear with?
What you said was - that man is justified without works by faith alone.
Let me refresh you memory:
Here is your original quote from MacArthur"
JUSTIFIED:...Justification is a gracious gift God extends to the repentant, believing sinner,wholly apart from human merit or work.
MacArthur says wholly apart from work -
No amount of verbal waffling, spinning, dancing or other attempts at obfuscation is going to change the facts.
You say one thing - the apostle says another.
HK
(Please feel free to have the last word.) [/quote]
H a r o l d!!!!! John was using the text from Romans to explain the use of this word and he was discussing this scripture in CONTEXT with the rest of the text... HELLOOOO, is anyone home in Harolds house tonight? READ ROMANS 11:6 AND EPHESIAN 2:8,9!!!!! These are the facts the Word of God!!!
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Is the light in your house getting dim - light a candle and look at the passage again.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Are you looking? The man called Jesus "Good Master". If he did not believe Jesus was who he said He was why would he call Him Master and then ask Him what he must do to have eternal life?
Of course, this is going to require you to think...
Really Raelyn - your OUT OF CONTEXT defense is ridiculous - every answer you offer attacks your own credibility.
HK
Well Harold I believe my/HIS light is burning brightly and your credibility is slowly fading...
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Greek Word for "Good Master" taken from you King James Bible or which ever version you are using is:
didaskalos- which means "teacher". a teacher; in the N. T. one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the duties of man. 1. of one who is fitted to teach, or thinks himself so. Hebrews verse 12; Romans 2:20 2. of the teachers of the Jewish religion.
The rich young ruler wasn't necessarily saved or even a believer and no where does it say that he is. He is simply asking Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life. He was simply asking a question. In fact he walked away sad because he couldn't give up his possessions. Don't you think that if he was truly a believer he would have given them up and followed the teacher?
and for your information Harold I do think and I study the Bible in depth, take things in context and ask God to reveal them to me.. Your comments are rude, insensitive and once again lack love for you know nothing about me, or what I know or how I think and study...
You insist on legalism, you lack grace and you are out of balance. I pray that God would speak to your heart Harold and open up your ears and eyes to the Truth of His Word...
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"Talking about unbelievers? What part of "He that believeth on the Son..." are you stumbling over?
When people are unable to answer arguments and want to avoid looking ignorant they often resort to the "OUT OF CONTEXT!" ploy.
They are easy to recognize because they offer no proof of their assertion that if one reads the verse in context it means something completely different.
Only a deceiver or fool would quote out of context. Since this is a serious charge and you are the accuser lets see you prove your statement.
"He who asserts must prove".
Here is the context:
Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Joh 3:32 What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness.
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Prove that statement is taken out of context.
HK
Expecting a revealing silence....
I don't silence easily. Alright, I will prove that you have taken the scripture out of context once again. He who has ears to hear let him hear the Spirit of the Lord.
This scripture is clearly talking about salvation.. it is pure and simple. The "disobey" is the disobedience of not believing and trusting in God. This verse is clearly speaking about unbelievers not believers that are disobeying...
The topic that we are discussing is obeying, remember? Or did you forget the reason why we are discussing obedience.. Harold this thread is about obedience in the "BELIEVER". I am a "born again" Jesus is Lord, Bible Believing Christian who asked the question. I am the OP, remember? and my question is about Christian Obedience so please go back and re-read post number 1.
This scripture John 3:36 and its usage of not obeying is in respect to a non-believer so it doesn't apply to me or my question. So what is your problem? You have given your opinion and I read it and now you are free to go to another thread Harold. I appreciate everyone's views and opinions on this thread so thank you for your contribution.
John 3:36 (Amplified Bible)
36And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God's displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.](A)
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Once again the motivation of the heart or the true heart...
What part of "He that believeth on the Son..." are you stumbling over? 
What am I not making myself clear with?[/quote]
