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You are getting "no where" with this Finn, and you know it. Why are you giving up now?
I am not giving up, the game over, so why continue playing? You talked yourself into a corner, made a blunder, and lost the game, so what't the point of going back to square one and starting over? There is nothing you can say to restore your argument. It fell apart, and that's that.
There are 3 types of Divine will. All of which can be found in the book of Numbers chapters 22 and 23 with regard to Balaam as an example.
1) The Directive Will of God: Num 22:12 And God said to Balaam, ''Do not go with them; you shall not curse the people; for they are blessed.'' 13) So Balaam arose in the morning and said to Balak's leaders, ''Go back to your land, for the LORD has refused to let me go with you.''
It was God's will that Balaam was to refuse to go with the messengers from Balak. '' You will not go. You will not curse.'' Balaam was prohibited from going with the messengers back to their land to curse the Israelites.
2) The Permissive Will of God: Num 22:20 And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, ''If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them, but only the word which I speak to you shall you do.
Balak had a second time sent messengers to Balaam asking him to come and curse the Israelites. And Balamm wanted to do so. He wanted the fee that had been promised to him for cursing the Israelites.Therefore, God permitted Balaam to go. Balaam wanted to go contrary to God's directive will. God does not coerce human volition. He disciplines for disobedience, but he does not force obedience. On the way to the land of Moab, the angel of the LORD stood in front of the donkey that Balaam was riding, and blocked his way. 'The angel of the LORD' is a theophany, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. Here is what the angel of the Lord said to Balaam. Num. 22:32 And the angel of the Lord said to him, ''Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33) But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.'' 34) And Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, ''I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.'' 35) But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, ''Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I shal tell you.'' So Balaam went along with the leader of Balak.
God did not violate Balaam's free will, but He did discipline him for disobedience. That God allowed Balaam to go indicates God's recognition of human volition. In grace, God tried to deter Balaam so that He would not have to discipline him. But Balaam wanted to go and God stood aside and allowed Balaam to go.
C.I Scofield wrote...
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(22:5) Balaam was a typical hireling prophet, seeking only to make a market of his gift. This is the way of Balaam (2 Pet. 2:15) and characterizes false teachers. The error of Balaam ( Jude 11) was that he could see only the natural morality. A holy God, he reasoned, must curse such a people as Israel. Like all false teachers he was ignorant of the higher morality of vicarious atonement, by which God could be just and yet the justifier of believing sinners (Rom. 3:26).
The doctrine of Balaam (Rev.2:14) refers to his teaching Balak to corrupt the people whom he could not curse (cp.Num.31:16 with Num. 25:1-3 and Jas.4:4). Spiritually, Balaamism in teaching never rises above natural reasonings; in practice, it is easy world-conformity. See Rev.2:14, note.
(22:22) In v. 12 the directive will of the LORD was made known to Balaam; in v.20, the LORD's permissive will. The prophet was now free to go but knew the true mind of the LORD about it. The matter was wholly one between the LORD and His servant. The permission of v. 20 really constituted a testing of Balaam. He chose the path of self-will and self-advantage, and the LORD could not but gravely disaprove. The whole scene (vv.22-35) prepared Balaam for what was to follow.
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Numbers 22:5, 22:22, pages 197,198).
3) The Overruling Will of God. Numbers 23:5,11,12,25,26 Then the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth and said, ''Return to Balak, and you shall speak thus.'' 11)Then Balak said to Balaam, ''What have you done to me? I took you to curse my enemies, but behold, you have actually blessed them!'' 12) And he (Balaam) answered and said, ''Must I not be careful to speak what the LORD puts in my mouth?'' 25) Then Balak said to Balaam, ''Do not curse them at all nor bless them at all!'' 26) But Balaam answered and said to Balak, ''Did I not tell you, 'Whatever the LORD speaks, that I must do'?''
God did not allow Balaam to curse the Israelites because the discipline and judgment of Israel is always God's sovereign exclusive right. And had Balaam cursed the Jews, it would have amounted to anti-Semitism. In keeping with His promise in Genesis 12:2, He used His overruling will, His divine sovereignty to guard and protect His people from Satans attempt to curse them.
God's Directive will is the exercise of His sovereignty, which in the case of Balaam, did not permit him to curse Israel. God's Permissive will allows the negative volition of man as in the case with Balaam. God's Overruling will frustrates Satan's will. It was Satan who wanted to curs Israel, but God did not allow it to happen.
Man's ability to reject God's offer of salvation falls under God's Permissive will. God desires that all men be saved. But He does not overrule man's negitive volition toward the Gospel just as He did not overrule Satan's negative volition when he rebelled against God.
John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (God's Permissive will allows man to disobey) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'' ( God's punishes the negative volition of man. Rejecting God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ results in eternal destruction in the lake of fire. Not in the sense of cessation of existence, but destruction in the sense of eternal ruin and uselessness in torment. Perish-Apollumi-Strongs Number G622.)
It is God's will that all believers be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 5:18. But not all believers are.
It is God's will that believers give thanks in everything. 1 Thess. 5:18. But not all believers give thanks in everything.
It is God's will that believers trust Him. Prov. 3:5. But not all believers trust Him.
It is God's will that men obey authority and do what is right. 1 Peter 2:13-15. But not all men obey authority or do what is right.
It is God's desire that all men be saved. 1 Tim. 2:4 But not all men are saved. Only those members of the human race who place their trust in Christ for salvation are saved. John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up in the last day''Not all men believe in Christ. John 8:48 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''
D.S. - Devine Guidance (http://www.gracebiblechurchbaytown.org/doctrine/devine.guidance.htm - broken link)
By the sovereign decree of God, man has free will. And God allows man to reject His free gift of salvation.
Mike, no matter who you quote, no matter how you slice it, God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is based solely on what Christ did. You and sciotamicks don't answer to me on this and ignore me on this which shows you really have no answer for it.
God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4 is based upon what Christ did in 2:6. Because Christ ransomed all mankind God must free them all into His salvation.
I have posted this over and over again and yet neither you, twin.spin or sciotamicks have answered to it. Why? Because you can't.
All who are ransomed must be freed. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED...
I think the biggest problem between ETer's (that was me) and UR's (not me yet) is the word "eternal". We've already established that the word "hell" is mis-translated all throughout the Bible so why don't you look at how the word "eternal" is mistranslated.
This has probably been answered already, but...
Scholars say that eternal and related words are mistranslations of the respective words of the original language. The better translations for words eternal, everlasting, forever and ever is said to be age-lasting, for ages and ages.
However, if you look up eternal and related words in the dictionary, you'll find at least one definition that says merely "a very long time." time or something to that effect.
Scholars say that eternal and related words are mistranslations of the respective words of the original language. The better translations for words eternal, everlasting, forever and ever is said to be age-lasting, for ages and ages.
However, if you look up eternal and related words in the dictionary, you'll find at least one definition that says merely "a very long time." time or something to that effect.
Mike, no matter who you quote, no matter how you slice it, God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is based solely on what Christ did. You and sciotamicks don't answer to me on this and ignore me on this which shows you really have no answer for it.
God's will in 1 Timothy 2:4 is based upon what Christ did in 2:6. Because Christ ransomed all mankind God must free them all into His salvation.
I have posted this over and over again and yet neither you, twin.spin or sciotamicks have answered to it. Why? Because you can't.
All who are ransomed must be freed. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Again, readers of the forum, 1 Tim 2:4-6 has nothing to do with Divine decreed will of God imposed upon all men.
It has nothing to do with the draw of the Holy Spirit regenerating man into salvation.
Jesus said.... when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32).
Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32).
He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).
In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6) The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.
This may very well be the most difficult issue to deal with because of the meaning “all men” has in English. Does “all men” in the Bible always mean “all men without exception” or “all men without distinction.” Even in our everyday language we may use “everyone” or “all” to not mean the whole world but just a certain group. If I tell my wife that “everyone is going to lunch today” that does not mean the whole of humanity will be eating with me. This is where context comes into play. Just as in 1 Tim 2:4-6, "all men" is ONLY referring to those men in the previous verse, and IT IS THOSE VERY MEN, that all living lives of GODLINESS AND HOLINESS.
Not to mention the term itself, doesn't imply God's divine decree, so the Universalist, has no FOUNDATION in using 1 Tim 2 for his theory, and as a matter of fact, he can neither use any verse to his liking, to infuse such a doctrine that contradicts the scriptures.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 05-08-2010 at 05:44 PM..
Again, readers of the forum, 1 Tim 2:4-6 has nothing to do with Divine decreed will of God imposed upon all men.
It has nothing to do with the draw of the Holy Spirit regenerating man into salvation.
Notice how sciotamicks skirts the real issue which is all mankind being ransomed?
Quote:
Jesus said.... when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32).
Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32).
He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28).
Notice how sciotamicks skirts the real issue of all mankind being ransomed by Christ?
Quote:
In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6) The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.
And why should the New Testament be afraid of the word all? especially when all mankind have been ransomed and therefore all mankind must be freed?
Quote:
This may very well be the most difficult issue to deal with because of the meaning “all men” has in English. Does “all men” in the Bible always mean “all men without exception” or “all men without distinction.” Even in our everyday language we may use “everyone” or “all” to not mean the whole world but just a certain group. If I tell my wife that “everyone is going to lunch today” that does not mean the whole of humanity will be eating with me. This is where context comes into play. Just as in 1 Tim 2:4-6, "all men" is ONLY referring to those men in the previous verse, and IT IS THOSE VERY MEN, that all living lives of GODLINESS AND HOLINESS.
Again, sciotamicks brings in a red herring to get us away and on a different trail rather than stick to the real issue of 1 Timothy 2:4-6. It is really the issue of Christ ransoming all mankind and what must happen to all mankind . . . they must all be freed.
Notice sciota brings up another red herring by trying to declasify the "all" as just "some" who are just the ones "living lives of godliness and holiness" and according to him, this is "in the previous verse." But we are to pray for ALL MANKIND so that we may experience a life of devoutness and gravity now because we know that "God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
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Not to mention the term itself, doesn't imply God's divine decree, so the Universalist, has no FOUNDATION in using 1 Tim 2 for his theory, and as a matter of fact, he can neither use any verse to his liking, to infuse such a doctrine that contradicts the scriptures.
I don't believe in theories nor do I use any verse to my liking as he accuses us of. It seems he is doing that which he accuses us of. But that is getting off the trail which he dearly wants us to get off of. And what is that trail? It is this: All mankind have been ransomed. Since all mankind have been ransomed all mankind must be freed into God's salvation. This is why God will have all mankind to be saved is because Christ ransomed them all.
Stick to the issue sciotamicks. This is about Christ ransoming all mankind and what comes out of that, not anything else.
Is that how you debate?...I expect and exegetical response....not some emotionally driven rebuttal with 1 Tim 2:4-6 again...that is an old horse you keep beating which has been disproven...scripturally. So, please, change the record. It's scratched and keeps skipping.
Until you can respond formally, it is a concession and forfeit.
Is that how you debate?...I expect and exegetical response....not some emotionally driven rebuttal with 1 Tim 2:4-6 again...that is an old horse you keep beating which has been disproven...scripturally. So, please, change the record. It's scratched and keeps skipping.
Until you can respond formally, it is a concession and forfeit.
I didn't use an emotionally driven rebuttal. I used a very well thought out exegetical response for which all you can do is have an emotionally driven reply and just one more red herring to get us off the real trail.
I will not change the record. Just because it sounds bad to your ears does not mean it isn't sweet music to ours!
Until you can respond formally and stick to the issue of Christ ransoming all mankind and so based upon that God will save all mankind, it is a concession and forfeit.
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great post TJenkins602! 