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Explain "co-equal" in light of the fact that Christ was sent by His Father, prayed to His Father, did everything His Father commanded, and specifically said that His Father was greater than He? Even before He was born, He created the universe, but it was under His Father's direction. And today, He sits on the right hand of His Father (implying a position of subordination). He has said that He does not even know the time of His Second Coming, that only His Father has that knowledge.
All three members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal in their nature. Their essence. It is with regard to their plan of salvation for man that they assume their respective roles in that plan. The Father planned it, the Son executed it, and the Holy Spirit revealed it.
With regard to creation, it was the Father who planned it, the Son who did the actual act of original creation (Gen. 1:1), and the Holy Spirit who restored it (Gen. 1:2 and following).
Jesus Christ in His deity is co-equal with the Father. But when He took on the form of a man, became a member of the human race (doctrines of Kenosis and the hypostatic union) He became the unique Person of the universe. Eternal and infinite God, and true humanity in one Person. When Jesus said that his Father was greater than He, He was speaking from the standpoint of his humanity with regard to the plan of salvation.
Sitting on the right hand of the Father is a position of honor. It is a reference to His humanity . Again, it is only with regard to their plan of salvation for man that they assume their particular roles.
In their nature, their essence-they are the same. They are one. They all have the exact same Sovereignty, eternal life, justice, righteousness, love, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and veracity. But they are three separate Persons.
All three members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal in their nature.
Okay, I more or less can go along with this.
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When Jesus said that his Father was greater than He, He was speaking from the standpoint of his humanity with regard to the plan of salvation.
Sitting on the right hand of the Father is a position of honor. It is a reference to His humanity . Again, it is only with regard to their plan of salvation for man that they assume their particular roles.
Yes, and yet the subordinate role is always the Son's and never the Father's. It was that way prior to the Son's incarnation, during His mortal life, and today.
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In their nature, their essence-they are the same. They are one. They all have the exact same Sovereignty, eternal life, justice, righteousness, love, immutability, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence and veracity. But they are three separate Persons.
I agree.
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One in Essence.
Are you using the word "essence" to mean their divine attributes as opposed to physical makeup?
Yes, and yet the subordinate role is always the Son's and never the Father's. It was that way prior to the Son's incarnation, during His mortal life, and today.
By mutual agreement they have their respective roles in creation. Before anything existed in eternity past, they had always known what they were going to do with regard to their creative activities. But again, in their attributes, their essence, they are exactly the same.
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I agree.
Are you using the word "essence" to mean their divine attributes as opposed to physical makeup?
Yes. Their divine attributes. Only the resurrected humanity of Jesus has physical makeup. As God, He along with the Father and Holy Spirit are Spirit and have no physical makeup. Those expressions in the Bible that ascribe human features to God-face, hand, etc...are anthropomorphisms.
Okay, I re-read it and I'm back! I believe that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, and that prior to His birth He was known as Jehovah. Consequently, I believe that the verses in the Old Testament that you have referenced are describing the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. .
Thanks for re reading my OP.
But I am a bit confused.
IMO there is only one God. God the Father is the one since the beginning.
OT, NT same God.
So what is your take? As a Mormon your view on Heavenly Father is not one of which I am familiar.
I am not a Mormon just to eliminate any confusion.
IMO there is only one God. God the Father is the one since the beginning.
OT, NT same God.
I agree. What I was trying to say is that I believe that Jesus Christ was not only the God of the New Testament but the individual known by the name Jehovah in the Old Testament. Most of the references in the Old Testament are to Him. His Father was "God the Father," aka our "Heavenly Father," aka "Elohim." What do you believe Jesus Christ's relationship to God the Father is? Was He truly the Only Begotten Son of God, in your opinion? Was He divine or not? Could God's Only Begotten Son somehow not be divine? In my opinion, this would be impossible. I believe Him to be divine, hence, I am confortable referring to Him as "God." (Normally, however, when I use the word "God," I am referring to God the Father, our Father in Heaven, Elohim. When I use the word "Lord," I am referring to Jesus Christ.")
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So what is your take? As a Mormon your view on Heavenly Father is not one of which I am familiar.
Basically, this is it:
Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.
We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two persons are somehow both of a single being. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is.
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical makeup. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain -- or even to understand -- the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. It is the most profound sense of composit unity imaginable. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
Most Christians also use the words “co-equal” and “co-eternal” to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. By way of contrast, to most people's way of thinking, an ant is an inferior being to a human.
I agree. What I was trying to say is that I believe that Jesus Christ was not only the God of the New Testament but the individual known by the name Jehovah in the Old Testament. Most of the references in the Old Testament are to Him. His Father was "God the Father," aka our "Heavenly Father," aka "Elohim." What do you believe Jesus Christ's relationship to God the Father is? Was He truly the Only Begotten Son of God, in your opinion? Was He divine or not? Could God's Only Begotten Son somehow not be divine? In my opinion, this would be impossible. I believe Him to be divine, hence, I am confortable referring to Him as "God." (Normally, however, when I use the word "God," I am referring to God the Father, our Father in Heaven, Elohim. When I use the word "Lord," I am referring to Jesus Christ.")
Basically, this is it:
Our first Article of Faith states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.
We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two persons are somehow both of a single being. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is.
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical makeup. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain -- or even to understand -- the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. It is the most profound sense of composit unity imaginable. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
Most Christians also use the words “co-equal†and “co-eternal†to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. By way of contrast, to most people's way of thinking, an ant is an inferior being to a human.
I understand that, mostly. I know He said, "Not MY will, but my Father's will; so, it looks like Jesus DID have a will of His own. It looks like he had SOME kind of choice in the matter.
In John 8:58 when Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I am," the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense) and then he switches to the present tense when he says "I am." Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews' attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb "to be" by saying "I AM".
Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name "I am" that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood because they said, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God," (John 10:33).
John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
It is clearly obvious that Jesus is indeed God.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
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Indeed, Jesus Christ is God. He is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and with God the Holy Spirit.
And understanding that He is God is necessary for salvation. A person must believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. But if a person doesn't understand that Jesus Christ is God, then he doesn't believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. If a person doesn't understand that Jesus Christ is God, then he has an improper object for his faith. He is believing in another Jesus. One who doesn't exist and cannot save him.
The Bible is absolutely clear on who Jesus Christ is. It is generally cults who profess to believe in Christ but deny His deity.
Jesus is God? Did not Jesus say:
Joh 20:17 which is the term for "Teacher.Jesus is saying to her, "Do not touch Me, for not as yet have I ascended to My Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to them that I said, 'Lo! I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
By the above Jesus was telling them He is not their God nor their Father.
Jesus can carry the title "God." By the way, I believe in the divinity of Christ, He was divine but He is not the invisible Deity filling heaven and earth.
Come on sciota and Fred, give me the book chapter and verse for where that it.
Google Deity of Christ. This thread has more than enough, but as you continue to doubt and deny, the more I am convinced you don't have Christ in you.
Without Christ in you, your inability to discern the scriptures is evident.
Now it all makes sense.
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The Word of God says :
