Are Irish/Welsh/Scottish and English people still separate ethnicities in your opinion? (train, Finnish)
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It is becoming harder and harder to tell the Irish/Welsh/Scottish from the English, this is also due to more internal movement within the British Isles as well as intermingling between the various groups. Migrations from previously known Celtic regions into England, especially since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution has made it much harder. Nevertheless, in phenotypes, in hair coloring we could say that the Irish, Welsh, Scottish are generally more likely to have red hair than the English, while the English and northern Scottish are more likely to have fair hair than Celts. In eye color, the Irish and Scottish are more likely to have blue eyes than the English and the Welsh. In skin color, the Irish, Welsh and Scottish are more likely to have a fairer skin or freckled than the English, this is contrary to the setereotype of "dark Welshmen". Though these differences are slight and should not be exaggerated. They are all North-West European.
I know much more than you can ever imagine!
You are confused as heck! You are confusing haplogroups with haplotypes. I was referring to haplotype diversity which you probably need to do more study on. The study on which my statement is based, concludes that in terms of haplotype diversity it highest in southern regions of Europe and lowest in Ireland and Scotland. This is as expect, since the British Isles are located off the coast of northwestern Europe, then humans came there later than they would have in Spain or Bulgaria for example. Yes in Western Europe, the Y-haplogroup which scores the highest is the R1b, however there are various subclades depending on the region, within the most common subclade is R1b-L21. The R1b-L21 is most common in Wales, Ireland, parts of western Scotland and less common in eastern Scotland and England. Northwestern Germany also show some high frequencies of R1b-L21. The other subclade which is more common in continental Germanic countries is the R1b, which is commonest in the Netherlands and fair common in England too, but less common in Ireland or Wales. The R1b subclade commonest in Iberia is the R1b-DF27, which is not common at all in the British Isles!
This is the commonest R1b suclade in the British Isles is called the R1b-L21 also known as R1b-S145/Pretani (Brythonic).
I wonder if that map is just showing L21 and not the subclades under it. L21 is the most common in all the British Isles. L21 is also quite common in Brittany and Normandy. It is quite generic now and people would need further testing to find what subclade they are below it.
I know that M222 is very common in North Western Ireland and the rest of Ulster.
There are many subclades under L21. M222 is the Niall of the Nine Hostages subclade and L226 is the Brian Boru subclade. There are others but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.
M222 is my paternal haplogroup. Here is a map of M222 showing where it is most common.
Here is a good little read for anyone interested in the topic.
I wonder if that map is just showing L21 and not the subclades under it. L21 is the most common in all the British Isles. L21 is also quite common in Brittany and Normandy. It is quite generic now and people would need further testing to find what subclade they are below it.
I know that M222 is very common in North Western Ireland and the rest of Ulster.
There are many subclades under L21. M222 is the Niall of the Nine Hostages subclade and L226 is the Brian Boru subclade. There are others but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.
M222 is my paternal haplogroup. Here is a map of M222 showing where it is most common.
Here is a good little read for anyone interested in the topic.
Yes the map portrays the R1b-L21 as a whole. In France, it is only common in the areas you have named. We should both know why, it would be common in Brittany, this could be easily linked to the Ancient Britons who settled some areas of Brittany. In the areas where the Ancient Britons settled, have the highest frequency of R1b-L21. As a whole, the R1b-L21 is not that common in France, the R1b-DF27 is much more common in France and southern Belgium than the L21.
I wonder if that map is just showing L21 and not the subclades under it. L21 is the most common in all the British Isles. L21 is also quite common in Brittany and Normandy. It is quite generic now and people would need further testing to find what subclade they are below it.
I know that M222 is very common in North Western Ireland and the rest of Ulster.
There are many subclades under L21. M222 is the Niall of the Nine Hostages subclade and L226 is the Brian Boru subclade. There are others but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.
M222 is my paternal haplogroup. Here is a map of M222 showing where it is most common.
Here is a good little read for anyone interested in the topic.
I wonder if that map is just showing L21 and not the subclades under it. L21 is the most common in all the British Isles. L21 is also quite common in Brittany and Normandy. It is quite generic now and people would need further testing to find what subclade they are below it.
I know that M222 is very common in North Western Ireland and the rest of Ulster.
There are many subclades under L21. M222 is the Niall of the Nine Hostages subclade and L226 is the Brian Boru subclade. There are others but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.
M222 is my paternal haplogroup. Here is a map of M222 showing where it is most common.
Here is a good little read for anyone interested in the topic.
This map JUST shows a global picture of the distribution of R1b subclades over the Western European countries, it's not specific at all. Now I don't know so many people always wanted to link Iberia to the British Isles, it's pathetic! Even if there is a connection, it is not that close! In England again we see the mix, even in Cornwall which England's "most Celtic" region. I understand now why the word for English people in Irish Gaelic is Sassenagh (Saxons), I believe. The L21 is found all over the British Islands, but doesn't prevail in England as it does in Wales/Ireland, due to Germanic intrusion in the 5th century AD. It is not the oldest Y-haplogroup in the British Isles, as many erroneously thought previously.
Last edited by saxonwold; 06-06-2015 at 07:44 AM..
Yes the map portrays the R1b-L21 as a whole. In France, it is only common in the areas you have named. We should both know why, it would be common in Brittany, this could be easily linked to the Ancient Britons who settled some areas of Brittany. In the areas where the Ancient Britons settled, have the highest frequency of R1b-L21. As a whole, the R1b-L21 is not that common in France, the R1b-DF27 is much more common in France and southern Belgium than the L21.
The L21 in Northern France is older than what is in Britain because they can estimate the age using strs so it is all very scientific. All L21 in Europe is older than what is in Britain and Ireland so they can tell the route taken. L21 is thought to have first started on the river routes of Germany.
They will most likely be able to tell the path of the Celts in the future using ydna so it is all very interesting. Bell Beaker plays a big part in this.
Also France and Germany are very under-represented as far as dna studies so L21 is likely to be quite numerous in France.
The biggest news of course is the R1b origin from the Steppes so in the next few years they should have a pretty good idea of the populating of Europe.
Don't pay attention to an American ignoramus "flunked" from their "kindergarten" system. Since then, he's enthralled in cooked racist theories customised for the likes of him. The US government calls them "dormants", since they are cannon fodder for abject acts.
We don't know much about the hundreds of thousands of r1b clades and subclades. Not evident. Now we know that r1b was in Europe before glaciation, more than 12.000 years ago. There might be hundred of subclades and the present system, quite recent, might prove not real.
They know R1b has been in Europe only about 5,000 years. They have looked at ancient genomes and R1b-M269 is only a recent addition to Europe. The R1b that most Europeans are descended from is definitely from the Steppes. There is really no argument about this.
Don't pay attention to an American ignoramus "flunked" from their "kindergarten" system. Since then, he's enthralled in cooked racist theories customised for the likes of him. The US government calls them "dormants", since they are cannon fodder for abject acts.
We don't know much about the hundreds of thousands of r1b clades and subclades. Not evident. Now we know that r1b was in Europe before glaciation, more than 12.000 years ago. There might be hundred of subclades and the present system, quite recent, might prove not real.
Provide a link to substantiate your claim.
R1b-M269 has been assigned recently a Neolithic origin 5-7 KYA before present.
Saxonworld keeps trying to distingush English people from the rest of us. I don't think they are different AT ALL. Have you even been to England!?
And please stop talking about Irish people and red hair,most of the population of Ireland is Brown haired.
Stop talking rubbish!! If you don't have enough intelligence to understand my statements. I have never said anywhere that all Irish are red-haired. All I said is that, the Irish and the other of the Celtic fringe are more likely to have red hair than the English. We all know that the majority of Irish people have brown hair. If you can't understand, ask! Don't say what I didn't say. I have been to England (Liverpool, London, Lindsey) and I have English ancestry myself. I've already said that the Irish and English are similar, but there are slight differences. Please be a gentleman and don't tell me what to do next time!
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