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Old 07-11-2013, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flotard View Post
Florida. Miami. South Florida does not sound (accents) and feel (people) southern at all.
They do amongst the Black population.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
The question really depends upon how the South is defined ala' the question. That is, does it mean the 11 Old Confederate States? Does it mean the Census Bureau definition -- which is the broadest -- today? Would it include Missouri which was counted as "Southern" for quite a while in historical definitions when referring to "slave-states."

Interesting question, but the OP will have to define it as to original intent.
Missouri still has parts that are quite southern like southeast Missouri. In southern MO about 20 miles north of hwy 60 on southwards is still Dixie and north of that to hwy 50 is a transition zone a mixture of both.

Missouri is more southern than Maryland, and Delaware. I wonder how the comparisons of present day Florida and Missouri would be? FL is becoming more democrat while Missouri is becoming more conservative.

Florida still has southern culture in the rural inland areas in central and north Florida though, especially north florida.
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
They do amongst the Black population.
I disagree. Maybe amongst elderly black folks who have lived here there whole lives definitely have a southern draw, but South Florida has one of the largest black immigrant populations in the country, perhaps the largest after NYC with about half of the black population from the islands who are very different from Southern blacks. Although there is a segment, South Florida has the least "Southern" black population as a percentage out of all the Southern metros easily.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
So I wonder if the people are saying Florida are only saying it because of the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale area or Naples area. Go to Clewiston and tell me that this place ain't Southern. Heck, go tell them they aren't Southern and see what type of looks you get. Like Texas, the majority of Florida is Southern.
True, but Clewiston is not a big city! The metro areas of Florida far outnumber the people in the rural areas who would be considered southern.

Just like here in my state of Missouri while 25 percent of the state is in Dixie as being regionally and culturally in the south, the other 25 percent is a transition zone. St. Louis and Kansas City are not southern and contain a large chunk of the states population and outnumber the southerners in the state making it overall more Midwestern than a southern state.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSouthernMan View Post
True, but Clewiston is not a big city! The metro areas of Florida far outnumber the people in the rural areas who would be considered southern.
Exactly! Clewiston is 65 miles west of West Palm and has a whopping population of 6,000. Belle Glade is the same and most of the population is Mexican migrant farmers. Most people in South Florida will never even pass through these towns because there out in the middle of nowhere farmland/everglades with no major highways anywhere near them. North Florida is definitely Southern but to use these two cities as an argument that South Florida is Southern is somewhat grasping for straws imo. You can find small Southern populations within South Florida, but they're blips on the radar compared to the overall culture of South Florida/Miami metro.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:23 PM
 
260 posts, read 494,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofla951 View Post
Exactly! Clewiston is 65 miles west of West Palm and has a whopping population of 6,000. Belle Glade is the same and most of the population is Mexican migrant farmers. Most people in South Florida will never even pass through these towns because there out in the middle of nowhere farmland/everglades with no major highways anywhere near them. North Florida is definitely Southern but to use these two cities as an argument that South Florida is Southern is somewhat grasping for straws imo. You can find small Southern populations within South Florida, but they're blips on the radar compared to the overall culture of South Florida/Miami metro.
True. I lived in SW FL for ten years and might move back next year. I lived in Collier county and don't consider it southern. Even the few natives I knew did NOT have southern accents. Also didn't see very many Confederate flags at all and people would consider you white trash if you had one. Sure I knew a few rednecks, just like we have up here in Jefferson County MO but they did not have an southern twang. Although Collier County never really was southern. It was founded by someone from the northeast.

Someone calling Miami southern that has to be a joke. It fits in more with Cuba, or Mexico or the Caribbean than it does being in the south.

I can see the argument for Jacksonville being a semi southern city though.

I would think Florida is even less southern than when I left in 2002. The state is becoming more progressive as well with Obama winning both times.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Armsanta Sorad
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Florida and Texas
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Broward County Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
They do amongst the Black population.
Who? Haitians and Jamaicans who are predominant in South Florida?
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:01 PM
 
8,287 posts, read 11,829,931 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Having been to south Florida recently I say Florida. I heard more Neeew Joissey accents there than anything else. Well they were northeast accents, I cant tell one of those states accents from another in all honesty. I heard no one discuss southern heritage, no streets named for confederate generals, not much southern food, sweet tea was not on the menus at all the restaurants. People are aggressive on the roads, just like a trip up to New York. It may be most southern geographically but not southern at all culturally. Now the northern part of Florida is much more southern culturally.
I think people seem to forget the history of Florida. The state was admitted to the Union in 1845 and was 20 years old as a state when the Civil War broke out. Most of the population lived very close to the panhandle near GA & AL then while the rest of the state was sparsely populated. Miami wasn't even founded as a city until 1896 or basically 31 years after the end of the Civil War.

Hence Miami or south Florida has no history in regards to the Confedracy and most of the state was developed by Northereners. It really wasn't until after WW 2 when many "southerners" who were stationed in Florida decided to move to the state. The Confederate flag isn't particulary welcome and that was apparent when NASCAR went to Homestead and there race car fans waving that flag. There were protestors lining the route! I would say Florida for the most part is an outpost of Northern influence.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:40 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Not quite true. According to the most extensive self-identification survey ever done, most Oklahomans do indeed consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners. I have posted this before, but here it is again -- along with news clips -- for those who have not seen it:

************************************************** ***********

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

***********
Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

**********

CHAPEL HILL Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and youre likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there werent born there," he said. "In fact, most of them werent born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why I'm glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but haven't been able to before."

************************************************** **

Anyway, while your map was definitely an interesting one and you obviously put some time into it, I would disagree with a few of your northern and certainly western, boundaries. I hasten to add though it certainly does, I think, give an impressive guide as to topographical deliniations of what the South is supposed to look like.

There will never be any absolute consensus on what states/areas are Southern. Hell, else there would be so many articles, books, debates, arguments, etc, about it all! LOL Hell again, For one thing, to take a regression, there is not even any concise agreement on exactly what characteristics/traits define the South at all. As it is, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them!

But anyway, I agree with Dr. Reed (who headed to study pasted above), that one of the best definitions of the South is where a majority of people say they live in the South and consider themselves Southerners. And in those instances, when broken down into localized areas, even most West Texans answer in the affirmative to both questions.

That might be (IMHO) as good as it will ever get...


Amen on all fronts!

The last few years I have spent more time in West Texas than probably any other part of my life put together. I have really enjoyed my time there and the folks/friends I've met. West Texas culture, undeniably Southern for those of us who have spent some time there, reminds me so much of Oklahoma in many ways (twangy accents, food, Southern Baptist churches everywhere, college football craziness). I think Oklahoma is a really nice synthesis of West/North Texas and West Arkansas. It's like Texas and Arkie had a kid and the result was Oklahoma with a bunch of NDN thrown in.

Another thing about West Texans: They're every bit (if not more!) rabid about their football than Oklahoma. Those Texas Tech fans can hang with the rowdiness of the Oklahoma State fans (and other college football fan bases as you move from the Western South to the Deep South = SEC country ). A&M will always be one of us, SOUTHwesterners (Okies/Texans), but they left their rightful place in the Big XII South and went to the SEC....traitors.
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