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Old 10-24-2014, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533

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Here's a facial composite morph of the average Italian man.



Here's the average English face...



And here's an average male face put together combining 32 male faces at a university in Germany. I presume the faces are German.



I honestly don't see a huge difference.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
That guy could be "White" but I see no one else in that picture who is. It's not just his red hair that makes him look white, it's his skin that is more fair and freckled than anyone else, it's his less heavy facial hair, and his thinner eyebrows.

But at least you are admitting that the term "white" is super subjective and means nothing.
Of course the term is subjective. But your own apparently subjective experience is just...odd. I don't know any other way to say it. I checked on other forums I'm on, asking about local perceptions of whiteness, and no one, even from the Midwest or South, said they didn't think of Italians as white.

Regardless, white just means, in the U.S. context, you pass as white. That means you're either European, or you're someone who is West Eurasian from outside Europe who looks like they could be European even though they aren't (e.g., Berber, Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese, Armenian, Afghan, etc.

Out of curiousity, does this guy look white to you?

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Old 10-24-2014, 09:10 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,840,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Of course the term is subjective. But your own apparently subjective experience is just...odd. I don't know any other way to say it. I checked on other forums I'm on, asking about local perceptions of whiteness, and no one, even from the Midwest or South, said they didn't think of Italians as white.
Your perception is different. All I know is that while certain Southern Europeans are considered White in many parts of the country, in some parts they are not. Maybe I just know too many sheltered people. I am after all, mentioning my sheltered Christian Dutch friends who grew up mostly around just Dutch people (which again is why I appeal a lot to West Michigan).

I will say that the MAJORITY of people I've met while living in Chicago do consider Southern Europeans White.

Quote:
Regardless, white just means, in the U.S. context, you pass as white. That means you're either European, or you're someone who is West Eurasian from outside Europe who looks like they could be European even though they aren't (e.g., Berber, Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese, Armenian, Afghan, etc.
This is where I disagree, because even though I think that many Americans can agree Europeans are White, I don't know many people who think Kim Kardashian looks European. Their first instinct is "racially ambiguous" and think that can be applied to many of the nationalities you listed. I get confused for Lebanese a lot by many European-Americans. You don't know how many times the swarthy fellow like me is mistaken for being Middle Eastern by other European-Americans even though I am not. I'm not saying most Americans would look at Kim K and say "not White" but their first instinct would probably be more confused than saying "she definitely looks White". And that's the thing about West Asia. Being that it is a place in the middle of continents, the corresponding look you will get will fit in many parts of the world because it's so "middle of the road". It's kind of how people argue endlessly about whether transition states are part of certain regions or not. I think this is the case with West Asia.

Quote:
Out of curiousity, does this guy look white to you?
He could fit in most places in the world, save for Sweden, West Africa, or East Asia. I've seen Latin Americans who look like that guy and I didn't think they looked out of place for a "typical" Latin American even though I know full well Latino isn't a race.

I guess my answer is, he doesn't definitely look like anything in particular. He looks mostly Mediterranean but if I didn't know what Mediterranean features were I'd have a hard time placing him. Where is he from? His features are similar to mine (I have more facial hair though) and my skin is a bit lighter. But maybe he has a tan. Watch him be from Ireland or something.

Basically, I think there are people in the world who are "unquestionably White", people who are ambiguous and could or could not be White, and people who by no stretch of the imagination could ever be White (like East Asians or Sub-Saharan Africans).
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Your perception is different. All I know is that while certain Southern Europeans are considered White in many parts of the country, in some parts they are not. Maybe I just know too many sheltered people. I am after all, mentioning my sheltered Christian Dutch friends who grew up mostly around just Dutch people (which again is why I appeal a lot to West Michigan).

I will say that the MAJORITY of people I've met while living in Chicago do consider Southern Europeans White.
The only thing I can think of which is close to this is there are jokes on the East Coast about Sicilians being "part black." This isn't so much, from what I can tell, about appearance, but because Sicily was ruled by Muslims for several hundred years in the Middle Ages. Muslims at the time, particularly if from North Africa, were called Moors regardless of race, although nowadays that term tends to imply being black. So there's this popular idea that "Sicily was invaded by black Africans, and now they're half black!"

Most Sicilians look pretty similar to other Italians though. There's some that do have a Near Eastern cast to them though. John Turturro is a good example. He's played everything from Jews to Cubans in movies due to his somewhat ambiguous look.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
This is where I disagree, because even though I think that many Americans can agree Europeans are White, I don't know many people who think Kim Kardashian looks European. Their first instinct is "racially ambiguous" and think that can be applied to many of the nationalities you listed. I get confused for Lebanese a lot by many European-Americans. You don't know how many times the swarthy fellow like me is mistaken for being Middle Eastern by other European-Americans even though I am not. I'm not saying most Americans would look at Kim K and say "not White" but their first instinct would probably be more confused than saying "she definitely looks White". And that's the thing about West Asia. Being that it is a place in the middle of continents, the corresponding look you will get will fit in many parts of the world because it's so "middle of the road". It's kind of how people argue endlessly about whether transition states are part of certain regions or not. I think this is the case with West Asia.
Kim Kardashian is on the dark side for Armenians - and she tans and wears lots of makeup. But look at say Anita Sarkeesian of Gamergate fame. Just looks southern European.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
Watch him be from Ireland or something.
You saw through my ploy! 100% Irish.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:00 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,840,611 times
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My first name was Celtic before changing it so people would think I was black Irish.

That Armo lady you posted looks a lot like my aunt. But didn't you yourself say that even an unquestionably White guy like you has been mistaken for not White?
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,483 posts, read 10,460,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The only thing I can think of which is close to this is there are jokes on the East Coast about Sicilians being "part black." This isn't so much, from what I can tell, about appearance, but because Sicily was ruled by Muslims for several hundred years in the Middle Ages. Muslims at the time, particularly if from North Africa, were called Moors regardless of race, although nowadays that term tends to imply being black. So there's this popular idea that "Sicily was invaded by black Africans, and now they're half black!"

Most Sicilians look pretty similar to other Italians though. There's some that do have a Near Eastern cast to them though. John Turturro is a good example. He's played everything from Jews to Cubans in movies due to his somewhat ambiguous look.





Kim Kardashian is on the dark side for Armenians - and she tans and wears lots of makeup. But look at say Anita Sarkeesian of Gamergate fame. Just looks southern European.





You saw through my ploy! 100% Irish.
Armenians and Turks definitely fall in that gray area of what most people perceive as a stereotypical "White person".
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Old 10-25-2014, 05:30 AM
 
Location: London, UK
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European people are very homogeneous looking when you compare to Africans and East Asians. The difference between a Italian and a Southern British is next to zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Of course the term is subjective. But your own apparently subjective experience is just...odd. I don't know any other way to say it. I checked on other forums I'm on, asking about local perceptions of whiteness, and no one, even from the Midwest or South, said they didn't think of Italians as white.

Regardless, white just means, in the U.S. context, you pass as white. That means you're either European, or you're someone who is West Eurasian from outside Europe who looks like they could be European even though they aren't (e.g., Berber, Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese, Armenian, Afghan, etc.

Out of curiousity, does this guy look white to you?
I don't know if he's white but I do know one thing...he's hot!!

He looks North Indian, Pakistani or Iranian.
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Old 10-25-2014, 05:53 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,840,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P London View Post
European people are very homogeneous looking when you compare to Africans and East Asians. The difference between a Italian and a Southern British is next to zero.
Oh I get that. But then when you look at the pics of Saudis and Algerians that gwilly posted, these non-Europeans don't look very homogeneous with Euros, do they?
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Old 10-25-2014, 06:44 PM
 
Location: London, UK
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I guess so but I wouldn't consider arabians European. Turkish people don't look like Northern Europeans same as extreme southern Spanish, Italian but the north of these countries it blurs.

Compare this to Han Chinese, Japanese, Philipinos and Mongolians.

Then compare to desi Indians, Bangalis, Burmese, Sri Lankans. Massive differences..
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:25 AM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,840,611 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by P London View Post
I guess so but I wouldn't consider arabians European. Turkish people don't look like Northern Europeans same as extreme southern Spanish, Italian but the north of these countries it blurs.

Compare this to Han Chinese, Japanese, Philipinos and Mongolians.

Then compare to desi Indians, Bangalis, Burmese, Sri Lankans. Massive differences..
I know you wouldn't consider Arabians European. But the idea here was that Europeans and "West Eurasians" share genetic similarities. My point was that you could place the average European in a same room with average Saudi (and you didn't know their ethnic background) and no one would think they are related or even the same race.

Anyway, 1 more thing that relates to Latinos is the fact that in some parts of the US, Spaniards aren't considered White. I've noticed this. It's like "oh they are European but they speak Spanish so...not White I guess"
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