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I don't believe in an open border, but I do believe we need to address the legal immigration problems as well as the illegal ones. I understand it takes months to years to get approval to legally immigrate. Maybe if we fixed the legal process we would have less illegals.
What is "fixing" to you? Giving away papers in boxes of cracker jacks? We shouldn't be allowing people to come here just to live off of the US tax payers.
Ahhh.... I see what you're saying. Your issue is not really that we'd be rewarding them, it's that we'd not be punishing them enough. I'd agree with that, but it's not the same thing as a reward.
I know of no one who is suggesting that they do not follow the same exact guidelines required of legal applicants.
Who is?
So? A lot of the proposals I've seen require the same of illegals.
Well I am struggling with taking you seriously. Either you are intentionally being obtuse or you simply refuse to read what has been written.
You see nothing. I am saying that allowing an illegal to stay is rewarding them for their criminal behavior. No different than allowing the crook to keep what he has stolen. Worse still to then allow them to reap even more rewards for their criminal behavior by not deporting them. We give them exactly what they wanted. That is a reward by any measure.
How can you say that you know no one who suggest that they do not follow the exact same guidelines?
Obama himself has said as much. He is for allowing them to stay without deportation.
Legal immigrants must apply from nation of origin. Legal immigrants must pass a background check. Legal immigrants must be interviewed and approved for a VISA. Legal immigrants must wait until they receive a VISA before entering the USA. How is this even remotely the same as what Obama and other pro-illegals are advocating?
Letting any illegal stay in the United States while allowing them to pay fines to become citizens is nothing BUT rewarding them.
Nonsense.
We need a comprehensive and sober immigration policy... one that actually takes into account the realities of economics. One of those realities is that labor and work find each other; either people will come for the work, or the work will go to where the people are. I refer you to the massive amount of outsourcing of American jobs to Mexico (think "maquiladoras") and India.
When people whine about "illegals" driving down American wages (something that is just as true with "legals") they are in fantasy land when they imagine that keeping them out will allow wages to rise. Not in any capitalistic system that I know of. The jobs will either be here and lower paying, or they will not be here at all.
We will never solve the illegal immigration problem for example until we have (among other things) a rational guest worker program. But such an idea is dead on arrival because people have some weird idea that it would "reward" people they don't want rewarded.
It is pathetic that we stubbornly refuse to do the right things for us and for our economy because people feel some irrelevant but visceral need to punish somebody. Laws like the one passed in Arizona go a great distance to make the advocates of punishment feel better. They do nothing to fix the real problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani
There may be proposals out there that say illegals have to go home and apply, but, seriously, do you think any illegal is going to step forward and say they are illegal and actually go back home?
Actually, I am fully convinced that every single illegal would rather be legal. So yes, I think that a program designed that actually took into account economic truth would find a vast number of illegals stepping forward and taking advantage of a plan that makes them legal, even if that requires they go home for a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani
Those who want CIR want nothing more than to allow illegals already here to stay and "get legal". It just ain't gonna happen.
No... it's not going to happen.
And that's why we will not solve this problem at all.
Well I am struggling with taking you seriously. Either you are intentionally being obtuse or you simply refuse to read what has been written.
Those are two options. They are not the inclusive list of possibilities.
Another might be that my consideration of the issue is somewhat more subtle than just making sure that little brown people with a funny language stay on their side of the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
You see nothing. I am saying that allowing an illegal to stay is rewarding them for their criminal behavior. No different than allowing the crook to keep what he has stolen. Worse still to then allow them to reap even more rewards for their criminal behavior by not deporting them. We give them exactly what they wanted. That is a reward by any measure.
Any choice a government makes creates winners and losers. Often who wins and who loses has nothing to do with the behavior of either group. We make those decisions instead because they are the right ones for us, our nation and our economy.
If your rhetoric around illegal immigration betrayed an inkling of understanding that, it would be easier to allow you the benefit of the doubt that you really were worried about rewarding bad behavior. But sadly, I cannot find any cause to credit you that way.
Your primary concern appears to be that you are pissed off, and that you want to see somebody pay for your unhappiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
How can you say that you know no one who suggest that they do not follow the exact same guidelines?
Because, again, I understand that comprehensive immigration reform is about what is right for us, our nation and our economy. It is not about finally giving maids and gardeners a well deserved spanking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Obama himself has said as much. He is for allowing them to stay without deportation.
And if that's the right thing to do for us, our nation and our economy... why would you oppose that? Oh, I forgot. Because it doesn't punish them enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Legal immigrants must apply from nation of origin. Legal immigrants must pass a background check. Legal immigrants must be interviewed and approved for a VISA. Legal immigrants must wait until they receive a VISA before entering the USA. How is this even remotely the same as what Obama and other pro-illegals are advocating?
You are speaking here of the current laws... you remember?... the ones that are not working and that got us into this situation that you are so upset about?
I am unaware of anyone who is suggesting that comprehensive immigration reform means doing exactly the same things we are doing now. Instead they are actually recommending solutions to the problem.
And the problem is how to fix our immigration system, not how to get rid of Mexicans.
Last edited by HistorianDude; 06-11-2010 at 12:08 PM..
Laws like the one passed in Arizona go a great distance to make the advocates of punishment feel better. They do nothing to fix the real problem.
I respectfully will disagree with this statement
1. It's the law PERIOD !
2. It's a start and that's more then what our own Government has done.
If the Federal Government continues with this wait and see
approach on securing the border the citizens of Arizona will
protect it's self from illegal invaders and each day we are getting closer to this.
2. It's a start and that's more then what our own Government has done.
If the Federal Government continues with this wait and see
approach on securing the border the citizens of Arizona will
protect it's self from illegal invaders and each day we are getting closer to this.
The Federal Government is not continuing "with this wait and see approach."
The Federal Government is being actively prevented from doing what is right (i.e. reforming our immigration system) because people think that laws like Arizona's actually fix the problem.
Roma, nobody on CD or in the general population at large supports illegal immigration. Get it? Nobody............except illegal immigrants. This is just a ploy you and other hard line right wingers use to label anyone who doesn't want to deport all hispanics in the country and shoot children for throwing rocks, as supporters of illegal immigrants and thereby enemies of the state. It's an old tactic used for centuries. Seperate your opponent from the pack, villify them with inuendo and false association, then justify taking extreme measures based on the falsehoods you've fabricated. ONE, MORE TIME.........Nobody supports illegal immigration........not those who disagree with your methods, not legal hispanics, not churches, not politicians...............nobody......I'd appreciate it if you would stop painting your opponents in this matter with your tainted brush.
The Federal Government is not continuing "with this wait and see approach."
The Federal Government is being actively prevented from doing what is right (i.e. reforming our immigration system) because people think that laws like Arizona's actually fix the problem.
The Federal Government is not being 'actively prevented' from enforcing our immigration laws - yet they are failing to do so in spades. Can you explain why that is?
And why on earth should we reform our immigration system? Let's begin by enforcing our current laws, and then we can see what needs to happen in the best interest of the US, and the citizens of the US.
Roma, nobody on CD or in the general population at large supports illegal immigration. Get it? Nobody............except illegal immigrants. This is just a ploy you and other hard line right wingers use to label anyone who doesn't want to deport all hispanics in the country and shoot children for throwing rocks, as supporters of illegal immigrants and thereby enemies of the state. It's an old tactic used for centuries. Seperate your opponent from the pack, villify them with inuendo and false association, then justify taking extreme measures based on the falsehoods you've fabricated. ONE, MORE TIME.........Nobody supports illegal immigration........not those who disagree with your methods, not legal hispanics, not churches, not politicians...............nobody......I'd appreciate it if you would stop painting your opponents in this matter with your tainted brush.
You say nobody supports illegal immigration yet tell everyone we can't remove those illegally here?
Isn't that supporting it? It is in my book.
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