Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What if the cop asked you if you are a pedophile, a child molester? What if he did this in front of your children, wife, family? Would this bother you. What if he asked you to prove it? What if he wanted to run your name through the database of sex offenders after he asked you this and deatined you? Are you fine with this?
You compare being asked your legal staus to being asked if you are a pedophile? Are you saying that one is like the other?
Once again They may ask me about my legal status any time of any day of any week I will not be offended nor would I give them grief if they did.
Unlike many, I have nothing to worry about.
Unlike many I don't have a problem with cops doing their jobs.
I do have a problem with cops not doing their jobs.
As you said many of us just don't feel the need to challenge authority when we know that we have broken know laws or have nothing to hide. Those who served in the Military like myself have no issue with authority most of the time. Thats not to say that we won't challenge a cop when we think they are in the wrong. I know that both my friend and myself both have on occasion.
It also comes down to is it worth the problems that may follow? 1900 miles from home. Do I really want to get into a chest thumping match with a cop simply because they asked for my ID? Not really. I tend to pick and chose my battles based on merit or probability of success, not to mention potential cost.
On the flip side, and I don't mean to and don't believe I am talking out of both sides, really all you need to do is, after providing preliminary identifying information, ask may I go? Then, if not, am I under arrest? They can't really say no to both questions, but if you can't go, they are detaining you, and Miranda comes into play. Then state, I'd like to speak to an attorney.
If they value their jobs, it shouldn't be an issue... But you're right, essentially it is an individual balancing issue. But many folks don't choose to exercise their constitutional rights (I don't choose to call it a chest-thumping match) more out of fear or ignorance, not out of cool-headed analysis...
On the flip side, and I don't mean to and don't believe I am talking out of both sides, really all you need to do is, after providing preliminary identifying information, ask may I go? Then, if not, am I under arrest? They can't really say no to both questions, but if you can't go, they are detaining you, and Miranda comes into play. Then state, I'd like to speak to an attorney.
If they value their jobs, it shouldn't be an issue... But you're right, essentially it is an individual balancing issue. But many folks don't choose to exercise their constitutional rights (I don't choose to call it a chest-thumping match) more out of fear or ignorance, not out of cool-headed analysis...
This is understood. The context of the cross examination was in reference to what if you didn't have your ID to show them. As in the case of a friend of mine.
Thank you for the respectful post. It would seem that some are unable to do so.
On the flip side, and I don't mean to and don't believe I am talking out of both sides, really all you need to do is, after providing preliminary identifying information, ask may I go? Then, if not, am I under arrest? They can't really say no to both questions, but if you can't go, they are detaining you, and Miranda comes into play. Then state, I'd like to speak to an attorney.
If they value their jobs, it shouldn't be an issue... But you're right, essentially it is an individual balancing issue. But many folks don't choose to exercise their constitutional rights (I don't choose to call it a chest-thumping match) more out of fear or ignorance, not out of cool-headed analysis...
My friend who is a criminal defense lawyer says that most people are completely ignorant of the law. His exact words "If you ever get arrested, even if you are innocent, keep your mouth shut" I told him, " but if I don't cooperate this will make me look guilty ". He said, "if they are arresting you, they already think you are guilty and are fishing for information to put you away, let your lawyer talk for you"
If a police officer asks you for ID, you mean, your not going to show it to him...and if your not an American citizen, you have no constitutional rights...and if someone asks me for ID, I'm certainly going to give it to them....
First, you might want to learn what your rights are before you so blithely give them away. Second, if you are within the borders of the US, legally or otherwise, you fall under the jurisdiction of the US Constitution and all of its protections. See the 14th Amendment.
I have been stopped by law enforcement while walking down the street, asked my name (which I gave them) and asked for ID (which I respectfully declined to provide). The ONLY question you are required by law to answer is "What is your name?" If you say anything else, you are voluntarily giving up your constitutionally protected rights. I am not so cavalier about my rights that I would voluntarily give them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee
You people are taking this all the way over to the other side which is illogical....
Years ago, this wasn't an issue and we didn't have these kind of problems...why, b/c illegal meant just that...our border system worked along with immigration laws....
I want America cleaned up and the illegals outa here...period....
You claim you want the US Constitution upheld, but don't bother reading the document and eagerly give up your constitutionally protected rights to the first police officer who asks you a question. Which makes me wonder why we even bother protecting your rights in the first place since you clearly do not know or care what they are.
My friend who is a criminal defense lawyer says that most people are completely ignorant of the law. His exact words "If you ever get arrested, even if you are innocent, keep your mouth shut" I told him, " but if I don't cooperate this will make me look guilty ". He said, "if they are arresting you, they already think you are guilty and are fishing for information to put you away, let your lawyer talk for you"
You're right, and it's often a game of chicken. Sometimes, they're not looking to put you away. But, if they are, then everything you do is used against you, and often they don't tell you and don't have to tell you what tests they are using and how you can pass or fail them. See DUI reports, field sobriety tests, and NHTSA driving cues...
FWIW, I know many bright people who volunteer that information. It comes with upbringing, and the sense that law enforcement should be respected, even if they don't always comport themselves respectably. It may be naivete, but it isn't lack of intelligence. Many of these folks also come from other nations. My parents would quickly volunteer the information. One is a cytogeneticist. The other is a physics professor. I also know many folks from the WWII generation and their children who share that mentality as well. It took me 25 years to wean myself off of this mentality and into wilful, deliberate, but careful cooperation and respect.
I think the combination of immediate shock of seeing the lights and/or the badge and a certain naivete in our upbringing often overcome the awareness and assertion of our rights (I've told several of my friends to invoke their rights over and over, and still in the moment, they take the way out that is immediately easy, but may be long term more difficult), unless we are trained in experiencing that, and responding shrewdly.
Well said, I could not agree more. I tried to Rep. your post, but apparently I have to spread it around some more first.
The first step to weaning one's self off this "police state" mentality you accurately described is to become educated as to what our rights are under the US Constitution, including the limitations of law enforcement by reading relevant Supreme Court decisions. These include, but not limited to:
Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966);
Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968); and
Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004).
In regard to the Arizona law in particular, it would be wise if American citizens at least read the law and then acquainted themselves with a "Terry Stop" and what it means to both them and law enforcement before forming any sort of opinion on the law.
The Hiibel decision also makes it clear that State identity laws do not violate our rights under the 4th or 5th Amendments, but the only requirement under the law is to provide one's legal and proper name when asked. No identification need be produced to be in compliance with State law.
The US Constitution and the courts protect our rights and help ensure that we never become a "police state" where law enforcement can ask for identification and other information whenever they please. However, they can only do so much. If we squander that protection and toss away our rights voluntarily we have only our deliberate ignorance to blame.
I fully support the Arizona law, and I hope it is implemented wisely.
My friend who is a criminal defense lawyer says that most people are completely ignorant of the law. His exact words "If you ever get arrested, even if you are innocent, keep your mouth shut" I told him, " but if I don't cooperate this will make me look guilty ". He said, "if they are arresting you, they already think you are guilty and are fishing for information to put you away, let your lawyer talk for you"
Of course thats what he said. He is a lawyer. They make their money by getting involved whenever they can.
I agree though if you ever get arrested then you need a lawyer.
Simply being asked for your ID hardly constitutes arrest though.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
