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I saw Amy interviewed not long ago. I agree with most of her philosophy.
Quote:
"In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way."
Learning, in the old days, was not "fun". We took it seriously. Not everything was a game. Not everybody won. Some lost. Not everybody passed every grade. Not everybody got a trophy. Not everybody was just the best darn kid all the time no matter what they did.
As Amy says, she made some mistakes and regretted them, but learned from them. She also notes that western kids watch too much TV and play with video games far too much. Who can dispute that? Honestly.
We can't have it both ways, folks. We can't have the brightest scientists and mathmaticians; we can't have the best musicians without some very hard work, and western mothers just don't think their children should have to work that hard.
There's a balance to be found. School should NOT be fun. Recess is for fun; classes are for diligent and sincere work. There is no dicipline in today's schools. Mothers think each and every child should be placated and coaxed with entertaining classes and busy classrooms instead of demanded to sit up and be quiet and do their work. WHAT IS WRONG WITH A LITTLE SELF RESTRAINT AND DICIPLINE TAUGHT???
Another thought: Kids today grow up with such an inflated sense of self because of all the back slapping they get along the way, that when they are grown they are either incapable of going out into the world to support themselves, or they crash and burn and live with parents until they are 35 (There is nothing wrong with living with Mom and Dad into adulthood as long as Junior carries his or her own weight in the real world.).
I cannot let this pass without comment. On the Strictness Scale of 1 to 10, 10 being supremely strict, my parents were a 10.5. Further background: I have a brother who was declared "gifted" in elementary school. And that brother spent his teen years (60's) listening to rock music, hanging out in clubs, playing guitar, I'm sure he smoked dope and I know for a fact he participated in "shenanigans".
But he also kept his grades up and my parents were smart enough to let him develop his interest in music and musicians. From the time he was 17 he made serious pin money working concerts. He was also making contacts that he's kept to this day and have helped make him very successful as a concert photographer/reviewer/writer. And I can name a bunch of his high school/university friends (who are still his friends today) and who have similar stories. They have names you would definitely recognize. Like if you walked into a bookstore. Or download on iTunes. Or read newspapers.
Sorry, I just go a little nuts when people equate rock music and clubs with having a less-than-successful life.
Dang. I've hung out in a few clubs myself, know a slew of musicians, and I think I turned out just fine.
Yes, I second everything Dew says. It gets beyond annoying when people treat anything to do with the entertainment business as a waste of time.
Firstly, it's a business. A huge industry, in fact. I would say it's one of the few industries left in America in which the success stories are home grown and still manufactured in America. There are a lot of people who work very hard, behind the scenes and otherwise, to make it go. And it takes a lot of hours put in and dedication to do so. And, they make an awful lot of money doing it, a lot of the time. Those mansions in the Hollywood hills don't pay for themselves, you know.
I sense a tinge of regret in miyu's posts. She says
Quote:
When I was younger I was really active in arts, music, and science but when I got older it seemed like for practical purposes I chose to go science/technology in my career.
followed by this
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Thank goodness I had strict parents though I am sure I thought they were stupid. I am not saying all kids would be like this but most probably have gone through these phases. Getting stuck in the phase at a critical point in life ruins your chances. I'm pretty thankful now that they nagged me and punished me for going off the straight/narrow path -- hindsight is 20/20.
A lot of people I know are very thankful they went off the "straight/narrow" path. So are the people that enjoy the fruits of their labor. Guess what... fulfilling their dreams made them both happy and successful - what a concept!
I wasn't going to post until I read the whole thread but I had to respond to these:
Quote:
Originally Posted by miyu
Well, it's a shame when people let the maths and sciences go and think of them as some sort of inferior/banal thing. What people don't realize is that they are just as much a part of the fine arts and practice of the arts as the arts themselves. In fact, they are quite useful for any field, including the arts. There is a strong link between people who go into sciences and medicine who are also great musicians. The best artists (the masters) have a good sense of geometry, symmetry, and timing. Art isn't about just putzing around, and I think the ancient Chinese realized that from day 1 in translating the elegance of design into their artworks. When I was younger I was really active in arts, music, and science but when I got older it seemed like for practical purposes I chose to go science/technology in my career. Musical/art talent isn't something you can practice and develop, though it is still fun to play. Art is okay if you do commercial graphics arts or 3D, but that's still not "fine art" as you would romanticize it - still highly technical!
We were all children once. I know what I would want to do if my parents provided no structure. It would gravitate towards playing computer games, watching TV, listening to rock music, going to dance clubs with underage ID, building fires and doing other shenanigans where I'm not supposed to, hanging out with friends who do drugs, trying drugs, trying to be cool with the kids who did not do well. Any chance I got, pretty much. Thank goodness I had strict parents though I am sure I thought they were stupid. I am not saying all kids would be like this but most probably have gone through these phases. Getting stuck in the phase at a critical point in life ruins your chances. I'm pretty thankful now that they nagged me and punished me for going off the straight/narrow path -- hindsight is 20/20.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. My parents structured our day every day when we were younger. We were only allowed one hour of tv a day and one hour of playing outside and neither one was allowed until our homework was done. They became much more relaxed when we entered junior high and high school and I have wished they hadn't ever since I graduated.
In junior high I had more friends than in elementary school and I started focusing on the social aspect of school more than the academic. I went from advanced classes to "regular" classes in subjects like history and science because of this and only stayed in advanced classes in subjects that I liked. I got more and more into "hanging out" as I got older and, since high school is easy as hell to graduate and I had enough credits to graduate early, I spent my senior year pretty much just goofing off. All the while my parents didn't mind because my grades were still "good" but they didn't "micro manage" so I kept them happy and off my back by making sure I took easy classes so my GPA stayed at 3.0 or above. But what good is a 3.0 GPA when my math classes were remedial?
By the time graduation came around I wasn't ready for what lay ahead. I hadn't applied to any colleges other than my first choice and I wasn't accepted to that one so I floundered in community college for the next 8 years. The bad habits that I developed came back to bite me on the butt and I dropped classes left and right. I didn't take any math classes past high school gometry because I had bad experiences with two teachers, had to the take the class three times (aced it on the third try) and it wasn't a requirement to take any more math to graduate.
By the time I was 26 it wasn't just about school anymore. I was on my own now so I had to get a steady job if I didn't want to move back in with mom and dad (and I have too much pride for that) and it just wasn't feasable to work full time and be a full time student. I went to a vocational school for 6 months and got myself a good blue collar job with good benefits.
I consider myself successful because I live in my own home in a decent neighborhood, married a beautiful and wonderful woman and didn't get into alcohol or drugs or got anyone pregnant on the way here but I still regret not finishing my education because it resulted in my never having accomplished any of my career goals. Yeah, I like what I do for a living but I'd like doing what I WANTED to do even more and I'm sure I would've had a better income had I accomplished my goals. That would've resulted in my wife and I being able to afford to live in a better neighborhood with better schools and not having to sacrifice as much to live there.
So when we have children you can bet your sweet petooti that they're going to have "structured fun" and you can bet that it'll last until they get that college diploma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
I cannot let this pass without comment. On the Strictness Scale of 1 to 10, 10 being supremely strict, my parents were a 10.5. Further background: I have a brother who was declared "gifted" in elementary school. And that brother spent his teen years (60's) listening to rock music, hanging out in clubs, playing guitar, I'm sure he smoked dope and I know for a fact he participated in "shenanigans".
But he also kept his grades up and my parents were smart enough to let him develop his interest in music and musicians. From the time he was 17 he made serious pin money working concerts. He was also making contacts that he's kept to this day and have helped make him very successful as a concert photographer/reviewer/writer. And I can name a bunch of his high school/university friends (who are still his friends today) and who have similar stories. They have names you would definitely recognize. Like if you walked into a bookstore. Or download on iTunes. Or read newspapers.
Sorry, I just go a little nuts when people equate rock music and clubs with having a less-than-successful life.
Dang. I've hung out in a few clubs myself, know a slew of musicians, and I think I turned out just fine.
Yes, but you owe that to your parents' strictness having instilled the discipline that you and your brother needed to not let your experience with drugs and alcohol turn into addiction.
Yes, I second everything Dew says. It gets beyond annoying when people treat anything to do with the entertainment business as a waste of time.
Firstly, it's a business. A huge industry, in fact. I would say it's one of the few industries left in America in which the success stories are home grown and still manufactured in America. There are a lot of people who work very hard, behind the scenes and otherwise, to make it go. And it takes a lot of hours put in and dedication to do so. And, they make an awful lot of money doing it, a lot of the time. Those mansions in the Hollywood hills don't pay for themselves, you know.
I sense a tinge of regret in miyu's posts. She says followed by this A lot of people I know are very thankful they went off the "straight/narrow" path. So are the people that enjoy the fruits of their labor. Guess what... fulfilling their dreams made them both happy and successful - what a concept!
Sad that the entertainment business is the focus field where Americans are successful. No wonder we are falling behind the rest of the world; our most successful people are entertainers.
Yes, but you owe that to your parents' strictness having instilled the discipline that you and your brother needed to not let your experience with drugs and alcohol turn into addiction.
Well, that's a whole other kettle of fish. In our particular cases that is true but there are a 1,000 other reasons as well. When I was 17 I had a boyfriend took LSD, drank Drano while he was tripping, and lost his voicebox. That kind of turned me off. His parents were fairly strict BTW.
I've known many people who had parents who were strict and who disciplined them but who still did drugs and became addicted. I'm convinced that sobriety is often a simple gift from God because "there but for the grace of God go I."
Sad that the entertainment business is the focus field where Americans are successful. No wonder we are falling behind the rest of the world; our most successful people are entertainers.
Except for Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. Those men and women.
fatmancomics -- two full hours of free time is more than what many kids these days get. A FULL hour outside? An HOUR for television? Sounds pretty luxurious compared to what is the norm in some communities. Actually, I don't think I'd go for the hour of TV a day; I think that's too much for weekdays. But the point remains: two hours of free time, while not much, is still more than what many highly-structured kids these days.
My college professor friends have been complaining lately that students are entering college expecting too much structure. They want someone else to dictate the terms, and aren't comfortable with independence in time, in thinking, in taking intellectual and academic risks. A sweeping generalization, to be sure, but it's one of the dangers inherent in the push for parents micro-managing their children's lives, academically and otherwise.
Sad that the entertainment business is the focus field where Americans are successful. No wonder we are falling behind the rest of the world; our most successful people are entertainers.
Sad? Not really. I suppose you never enjoy films, watch TV, listen to music, appreciate art. Besides, the most successful people aren't actually the entertainers, it's the other people who make life long careers out of the business. It's sad that other industries have dropped off, yes. Sad that the entertainment business does well despite the ups and downs? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Well, that's a whole other kettle of fish. In our particular cases that is true but there are a 1,000 other reasons as well. When I was 17 I had a boyfriend took LSD, drank Drano while he was tripping, and lost his voicebox. That kind of turned me off. His parents were fairly strict BTW.
I've known many people who had parents who were strict and who disciplined them but who still did drugs and became addicted. I'm convinced that sobriety is often a simple gift from God because "there but for the grace of God go I."
Amen, sister. Having strict parents is no guarantee you won't fall prey to addiction. None. What. So. Ever.
I hate to break it too ya, Beans&Cornbread, but I read books nonstop as a child and went into the entertainment business nonetheless. Sorry.
My mother didn't quite get to retire, but she did get a few nice trips overseas, some backstage passes, and a few platinum albums out of it. She was quite happy about that.
Finster! Y'all cut some platinum and all your momma got was a couple puddlejumps and some wall decor? For shame!
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