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This has my vote, as well. People in families find a way to get along or at least tolerate each other, even when they have huge philosophical differences. Happens every day.
Every day, all over, to almost everyone. People learn to be polite and tolerant to keep the peace in the family. That is a normal way to deal with this kind of thing.
Didn't you say in another thread how your teenagers have sports until 6pm anyway? And then they have hours of homework?
Then what difference would it make if the OP wasn't home with her teenagers until then, and grading papers while they are doing their homework?
A bit hypocritical isn't it to talk about how busy kids are outside of the home in one thread and then demonize someone else for saying since her kids are in so many activities she isn't missing time with them.
When kids are young, they nap during the day and spend a lot of time just playing by themselves and with siblings. When they're older they spend time in school, doing homework and playing with friends. The end result is that the difference in time spent with kids based on moms working status isn't what many try to make it. It's not like SAHM's sit and stare at their kids while our kids are in day care. Honestly, you can measure in minutes per day the difference in actual interaction time.
My children played by themselves and with friends and napped at day care. Does it really matter that I wasn't there supervising those activities? Her DCP read her a couple of stories, gave her a morning bottle and fed her breakfast and played developmental games with her for about 20 minutes a day and changed several diapers. THAT is what I missed. When you look at actual interaction time, we're talking just over an hour a day each day they're in day care for a baby/toddler.
Yes, I was away from my kids for 45 hours a week but that's not the whole story.
When kids are young, they nap during the day and spend a lot of time just playing by themselves and with siblings. When they're older they spend time in school, doing homework and playing with friends. The end result is that the difference in time spent with kids based on moms working status isn't what many try to make it. It's not like SAHM's sit and stare at their kids while my kids are in day care. Honestly, you can measure in minutes per day the difference in actual interaction time.
My children played with friends and napped at day care. Does it really matter that I wasn't there supervising those activities? Her DCP read her a couple of stories, gave her a morning bottle and fed her breakfast and played developmental games with her for about 20 minutes a day and changed several diapers. THAT is what I missed. When you look at actual interaction time, we're talking just over an hour a day each day they're in day care for a baby/toddler.
Yes, I was away from my kids for 45 hours a week but that's not the whole story.
Please don't misrepresent me. I think the ideal situation for the preschool set is to have SAH parent. But given how many moms are claiming their teenagers ate über busy it doesn't seem to make sense to claim that your teens are miserable without you.
Please don't misrepresent me. I think the ideal situation for the preschool set is to have SAH parent. But given how many moms are claiming their teenagers ate über busy it doesn't seem to make sense to claim that your teens are miserable without you.
Why? Do you think it makes a difference? If so, what difference would you expect to see in the children of SAHM's and the children of WM's?
Our kids don't turn out different based on our working status during the preschool or any other years. I'll admit that SAH is easier during the preschool years but easier doesn't mean best. Given that 40% of WM's are the primary bread winners in their families, it's a good bet that most WM's are positively impacting their family's financial situation. Unlike SAH/WOH, SES DOES matter in a big way. It's the number one predictor of outcomes. Many WM's impact their family's SES. So why would it be best for them to SAH???
I don't think it matters if mom SAH or not. It's really just a financial decision.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-21-2012 at 06:11 PM..
Every day, all over, to almost everyone. People learn to be polite and tolerant to keep the peace in the family. That is a normal way to deal with this kind of thing.
THAT takes BOTH parties agreeing. She's not agreeing.
[quote=Ivorytickler;22649125]Why? Do you think it makes a difference? If so, what difference would you expect to see in the children of SAHM's and the children of WM's?
Our kids don't turn out different based on our working status during the preschool or any other years.[/qoute]
If you want to get into this with me, fine. Let's go.,
No you are WRONG. As someone claiming to have some sort of science training you should be saying "that most current research cannot find a difference based on a set of measurable outcomes".
To claim there is NO difference, in anyway, is a misrepresentation of the science. There are also studies that find preschoolers of SAHM are healthier when it comes to certain communicable diseases, and general lifestyle than WMs.
I'll admit that SAH is easier during the preschool years but easier doesn't mean best. Given that 40% of WM's are the primary bread winners in their families, it's a good bet that most WM's are positively impacting their family's financial situation. Unlike SAH/WOH, SES DOES matter in a big way. It's the number one predictor of outcomes. Many WM's impact their family's SES. So why would it be best for them to SAH???
More misrepresentation. You are comparing apples to oranges. SES is based on large groups and you are trying to apply it to smaller ones. If a family is already middle class. There is nothing that suggest in anyway that the increased income will make any difference in anyway, UNLESS THERE ARE MOVING UP AN ENTIRE SE CLASS. Since for many if not most families that is not the case, then your claim is a bad extrapolation. Frowned upon in science highly.
For example, in a typical family with two pre-schoolers the cost of full time QUALITY child care could easily cost more than a thousand dollars a month. Making the amount of take home money available less than $30K for the median US household, assuming the father makes the median income that does not actually move a family into another SE class. Therefore all your suppositions have NO MEANING.
Second, there is research that suggests timing of employment matters, at least for boys.
I agree. As long as you're paying the bill yourself, and not asking your kids to do without, it's your choice. I don't care what someone chooses. I just don't want to hear them spouting about how great they are because they chose it and how awful other parents are who didn't make the same choice. Everyone has the right to choose what they want if there is a choice (many WM's don't have a choice. They are the ones who deserve a pat on the back for doing what is best for their kids. It's always more diffciult when life doesn't give you a choice.). I just don't get the variety of SAHM who thinks that they should be patted on the back for SAH. My experience is they pat themselves on the back enough that no one else should have to. Some people are just so full of themselves.
On this, we definitely agree! If I was at a gathering and a SAHM was saying she was better than the working moms there...I'd be pi$$ed. However, I would try to pretend she was invisible and encourage everyone else to do the same. People who make an attempt to place themselves above others, find themselves quite alone and alienated there on the top of that hill. However, I wouldn't lower myself to her standards and try to compete....by telling her that working moms were better. It sounds to me like she's trying to justify her decision...just as you are justifying yours. Again, those decisions really don't need justifying. Live and let live.
Why? Do you think it makes a difference? If so, what difference would you expect to see in the children of SAHM's and the children of WM's?
Our kids don't turn out different based on our working status during the preschool or any other years.[/qoute]
If you want to get into this with me, fine. Let's go.,
No you are WRONG. As someone claiming to have some sort of science training you should be saying "that most current research cannot find a difference based on a set of measurable outcomes".
To claim there is NO difference, in anyway, is a misrepresentation of the science. There are also studies that find preschoolers of SAHM are healthier when it comes to certain communicable diseases, and general lifestyle than WMs.
More misrepresentation. You are comparing apples to oranges. SES is based on large groups and you are trying to apply it to smaller ones. If a family is already middle class. There is nothing that suggest in anyway that the increased income will make any difference in anyway, UNLESS THERE ARE MOVING UP AN ENTIRE SE CLASS. Since for many if not most families that is not the case, then your claim is a bad extrapolation. Frowned upon in science highly.
For example, in a typical family with two pre-schoolers the cost of full time QUALITY child care could easily cost more than a thousand dollars a month. Making the amount of take home money available less than $30K for the median US household, assuming the father makes the median income that does not actually move a family into another SE class. Therefore all your suppositions have NO MEANING.
Second, there is research that suggests timing of employment matters, at least for boys.
Then stop making threads about it. And it is just a FAMILY decision,
If I considered my kids raised at 5, I'd might take that study seriously. I don't consider them raised at 5. While there are differences we can measure at points in time, for every one you can find supporting SAH, I can find ond supporting WOH. In the end, only two differences remain (three if you count SES improvements) and they are found in our children's attitudes towards women and our daughter's self esteem and both favor the children of WM's. I don't consider raising children something I do for 3 years (3 YO's of SAHM's are more school ready than 3 YO's of WM's) or 5 years (5 YO's of WM's are more school ready than 5 YO's of SAHM's)....I consider it a multi decade committment. My concern isn't differences found at 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever transient age you want to pick. I'm concerned with differences in my children that are permanent and I know of none that favor having a SAHM. Feel free to post studies showing that adult children of SAHM's turn out differently than adult children of WM's because unless the differences are permanent, they come out in the wash and are nothing to be concerned about.
Yes, SES studies are done on large populations because the larger the population the more reliable the data. Unless you have some reason to believe that what applies to most people doesn't apply to you, you have to assume it does. SES is so important that it's the first thing that researchers correct for. It's taken as common knowledge that improving SES improves outcomes. That being the case, there is, absolutely, no reason for a WM who improves her family's SES to consider SAH as it would harm her children's outcomes. Given that any differences found along the way disappear on their own, there's no reason to think SAH is a better option than WOH. With the exception of afore mentioned self esteem and attitudes towards women and the impact on SES, the two choices are equivalent. I KNOW my working benefitted my kids becasue it improved their SES. I know that because SES matters so much that it's the first thing researchers correct for. There is nothing about SAH that would have, remotely, offset that imrpovement in my children's lives.
When you can tell me that my children will have some kind of permanent negative outcome because I WOH, you might get my attention. However, you can't. At the end of the day, what matters is not differences measured at points in time along the way but the final result. For my kids, that means the benefits of higher SES and the possibility of having higher self esteem, higher career goals and attainment and higher educational goals and attainment. What would be improved if I had SAH for 5 years or however many years??? Can you name one thing that research supports would be different about our children (compared as a class as that's the only way we can compare them) that would be different in a positive way? Let's stand our future 25 year olds next to each other. What will the differences be?
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-22-2012 at 08:12 AM..
On this, we definitely agree! If I was at a gathering and a SAHM was saying she was better than the working moms there...I'd be pi$$ed. However, I would try to pretend she was invisible and encourage everyone else to do the same. People who make an attempt to place themselves above others, find themselves quite alone and alienated there on the top of that hill. However, I wouldn't lower myself to her standards and try to compete....by telling her that working moms were better. It sounds to me like she's trying to justify her decision...just as you are justifying yours. Again, those decisions really don't need justifying. Live and let live.
Exactly. Great post There is competition in my eyes.
Confronting people like her just makes it more difficult to switch gears later on. Ignoring but also looking out for changes in attitude and behavior, allow for family to come together again.
I don't tolerate. But people who are "loud mouth, know-it-all, I don't care," don't bother me one bit. I was like that, too.
Ivory, the whole point of "patting on the back" is that you are focusing on anything positive about your DIL. That doesn't mean that you have to have a deep, understanding relationship.
On this, we definitely agree! If I was at a gathering and a SAHM was saying she was better than the working moms there...I'd be pi$$ed. However, I would try to pretend she was invisible and encourage everyone else to do the same. People who make an attempt to place themselves above others, find themselves quite alone and alienated there on the top of that hill. However, I wouldn't lower myself to her standards and try to compete....by telling her that working moms were better. It sounds to me like she's trying to justify her decision...just as you are justifying yours. Again, those decisions really don't need justifying. Live and let live.
I don't think she cares. She runs with a group of moms who all think the same way. She has alienated dss from his family (she never really joined our family...she just started pulling dss out on day one).
I don't justify my decision except in debates (usally in response to posts like the ones here and then someone like you comes along and tells me I'm justify...I can't win here, can I?). I don't have to because I know that the improvement in SES for my family trumps everything and I know that, at the end of the day, you won't see differences in our kids that amount to much (the ones you will see favor the WM but you only see them as a class so it's not determined which individuals will see the gains.It's really just a shifting of the bell curve with no guarantee that any one individual will see the gains. WRT SES, I KNOW that it changes where we live, where my kids go to school, activities my kids can participate in and even what we eat so I know that benefits them.).
I don't understand her feeling she needs to justify her decision by putting others down. What's to justify? She can't earn enough to cover day care for 5 kids and it's not like they need her working or she's taking WIC rather than work. If she feels the need to justify, why isn't she has 5 kids, her dh travels for work and she can't afford day care justification enough? I think that more than justifies a decision not to work if one feels it must be justified. Why the need to put someone else down too?
If I felt the need to justify my decision, the SES imrovement alone is all I need. I don't need to say SAHM's are hurting their kids (I don't think they are, I'm turning her argument around here). She doesn't need an SES improvement and couldn't give her family one anyway because she's uneducated and unskilled. So it's not like she's denying her family something they'd have if she worked. She's not. Their SES would not change. Unfortunately, she's not in the one class of SAHM's where there is an actual advantage. That's high SES SAHM's who are educated. Educated moms improve their childdren's outcomes regardless of working status but moreso if mom SAH as long as SES is high it doesn't change with her decision to SAH. Even with an educated mom, SAH isn't something one would sacrifice to achieve.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-22-2012 at 08:31 AM..
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When kids are young, they nap during the day and spend a lot of time just playing by themselves and with siblings. When they're older they spend time in school, doing homework and playing with friends. The end result is that the difference in time spent with kids based on moms working status isn't what many try to make it. It's not like SAHM's sit and stare at their kids while our kids are in day care. Honestly, you can measure in minutes per day the difference in actual interaction time. 
I don't consider them raised at 5. While there are differences we can measure at points in time, for every one you can find supporting SAH, I can find ond supporting WOH. In the end, only two differences remain (three if you count SES improvements) and they are found in our children's attitudes towards women and our daughter's self esteem and both favor the children of WM's. I don't consider raising children something I do for 3 years (3 YO's of SAHM's are more school ready than 3 YO's of WM's) or 5 years (5 YO's of WM's are more school ready than 5 YO's of SAHM's)....I consider it a multi decade committment. My concern isn't differences found at 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever transient age you want to pick. I'm concerned with differences in my children that are permanent and I know of none that favor having a SAHM. Feel free to post studies showing that adult children of SAHM's turn out differently than adult children of WM's because unless the differences are permanent, they come out in the wash and are nothing to be concerned about. 