SAHM families - am I really expecting too much?? (rates, taught, opinion)
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Sigh. The problem is, he doesn't scream or yell 'at first'. He'll just cry and NOT SLEEP, to the point where I'd actually be afraid for his psychological health if we actually let him scream himself to sleep, and I'm not convinced that would even happen. This kid is intense. The reason we were never able to sleep train him to begin with is exactly that, he wouldn't just cry for a bit and go to sleep, even as a baby he would scream bloody murder and was not able to console himself enough to get to sleep. It doesn't work for everyone. We figured it wasn't worth the trauma for everyone involved. Now that he's older I'm trying to get him used to the idea by talking about falling asleep like a big boy, but I am not going to just walk out and let him scream the whole night, because I know his temperament and I can't say for sure that this wouldn't cause actual emotional damage. He is an intense, emotional, high-strung kid, he's extremely advanced mentally, he gets agitated easily yet has an amazing attention span for his age and always did, which is why distraction and redirection did not work for him past a yea old, he remembers every.thing. better than I do and is impossible to calm down or distract if he gets wound up. The only thing that has been effective with him for the past year, and still is, is talking things out and explaining. If he gets why something is a certain way, he'll listen. People give me flack for discussing and reasoning with a three year old, but I know what works for my child and what doesn't. I've seen other kids his age and have confirmed that they react very differently, how most are so easy to redirect or distract when upset, while he gets stuck on something and can't move past it. Point is, all kids are different. Unless you're willing to come over and take over the parenting for a few weeks, don't tell parents how they're doing everything wrong.
I didn't sleep train my children either- I don't believe in it. If he's that upset, I wouldn't leave him either. Children do eventually sleep on their own, but it takes longer for some than others, and that's not poor parenting to recognize that. My three year old just started falling asleep by herself. But we have a very set bedtime routine (always have, even when I nursed her to sleep or layed down with her) and that helps a lot. Bedtime is always the same time, and we so calming activities leading into it. Then, get ready, read a chapter from a book, prayers, tucked in, and lights out. We promise to come back and check on her ( and always do) but she is often asleep in 2-3 minutes.
The thing is, I accept that this involved me giving up significant "me time" and I don't resent it. My DH and I take turns with our three year old and one year old. Whoever has the one year old often falls asleep with her, and that's ok. The other parent does dishes and picks up, then is free to do whatever. It's a sacrifice to be a parent, and I'm not certain your DH gets that. Maybe not even you do? I don't know. I do know I get next to no me time. Even hair cuts are few and far between. Part of that is life with little kids, and part if it is living away from a support structure, which we always have done and you are just now experiencing.
If your son isn't tired at night, you might try shortening or cutting out his nap. My daughters nap rarely (3yo gave up naps at 16 months no matter what anyone tried- she just didn't need them anymore) so they are in bed around 8:00, sometimes a bit earlier if they need to, and up between 7:00 and 8:00. My youngest often sleeps in later. You might find that easier than having him up late and you spending so long trying to get him down.
ETA- It's pretty rare that either my husband or I ever sleep in past 7:00 and I'm up for work at 5:45 on weekdays and I get up several times at night with my toddler. I am NOT a morning person, so there you have it. But such is life... I don't really see that you husband should get to always sleep in, but I also don't think it works out that either one if you should be able to very often.
Everybody is wired a bit differently when it comes to circadian rhythms and sleep patterns, and while you can tinker around the edges, our natural tendencies to be owls or larks or somewhere in between generally remain surprisingly persistent throughout our lives. And those patterns are largely set from birth.
Our older son has always had difficulty falling asleep, despite consistent sleep hygiene habits - regular bedtime and routine, lots of physical activity every day, no tv or computers after dinner, calm household in the evening, etc. We also took him to a counselor when he was 8 to give him some other strategies and techniques to self-calm and quieten his brain and it did help, but... At 5, his bedtime was 7.30, but it was frequently 9.30 or later before he was actually asleep. Now he is 10 and "heading to bed" time is between 8.30-9.00, but it is a rare night if he is asleep before 10.30. I don't like that it's so late before he gets to sleep, but short of drugging him (and yes, there has been the odd dose of Benadryl in moments of desperation), I can't make him sleep.
Now we have finally accepted that this is his natural rhythm and we have reached a sort of truce whereby if he is in his room from around 8.30 doing quiet activities such as reading (making sure the content is not too exciting) or drawing, then we usually won't push him to dim the lights and go to sleep until around 9.45. In contrast, our younger son who is 6, is usually in bed by 7.30 and asleep by 7.45. Same household, same habits, completely different outcome, because he's a different kid.
Having said that, you could try phasing out the afternoon nap (think you said he napped most days?) and that would probably help the evening sleep time somewhat. It's tempting to hang on to it because it's a little haven of peace and quiet during the day, but you are paying for it with the struggles at the end of the day because it sounds like he doesn't really need it.
Something else that sometimes helped slow the brain down at night was to spend five or ten minutes talking about whatever was on his mind, then drawing a picture of it and putting it "to bed" in a box on his bookshelf. Can help them to make sense of that complex inner world they are developing.
I remember those days. I had two who were less than two years apart. Seems like I nursed for four years straight and the first time in my life I was too busy to even brush my teeth some days. Taking a bath with a kid's screams reverberating off the bathroom walls wasn't too relaxing either, that didn't happen more than once. I found that napping when the kids did to be very beneficial even if they only laid down for half an hour or so which was their normal. They also went to daycare at three as I was now in charge of a new fulltime business.
The first time I asked my husband to put the baby to bed he put his pj's on over the babies clothes, so never asked him to do it again. My mother said she was too old to help but my dad did watch them a few times. I found a family down the road who had a farm, all girls, and they would babysit from time to time. I'm pretty tuff when it comes to extreme workload but my husband did get up with the kids when they were sick as his family was medically oriented which gave me a break. He also bathed them when he could and cooked breakfast on weekends. (I won't comment on my extreme distaste of video and computer games)
No doubt that this is an intense time in life. One good piece of advice my father gave me was to have 'fun' with my kids and I did. That piece of advice helped me relax into the role of being a mother. We spent a lot of time outdoors in the fresh air with all of us having a blast. I also talked to them a lot and explained things almost like you would to a young adult. It seems to me that your son is trying, as all kids do at some point, to manipulate you especially at bedtime. I would establish a routine and talk to him about having nice dreams, quiet time, or whatever works without staying for a prolonged time. One interesting thing my husband came up with was to record his voice reading bedtime stories which we could run as the kids were going to sleep. I would lie down with them for some amount of time. My husband also worked nights and so after they were in bed and to entertain myself I played the piano for them (classical music) often for several hours every night.
Sigh. The problem is, he doesn't scream or yell 'at first'. He'll just cry and NOT SLEEP, to the point where I'd actually be afraid for his psychological health if we actually let him scream himself to sleep, and I'm not convinced that would even happen. This kid is intense. The reason we were never able to sleep train him to begin with is exactly that, he wouldn't just cry for a bit and go to sleep, even as a baby he would scream bloody murder and was not able to console himself enough to get to sleep. It doesn't work for everyone. We figured it wasn't worth the trauma for everyone involved. Now that he's older I'm trying to get him used to the idea by talking about falling asleep like a big boy, but I am not going to just walk out and let him scream the whole night, because I know his temperament and I can't say for sure that this wouldn't cause actual emotional damage. He is an intense, emotional, high-strung kid, he's extremely advanced mentally, he gets agitated easily yet has an amazing attention span for his age and always did, which is why distraction and redirection did not work for him past a yea old, he remembers every.thing. better than I do and is impossible to calm down or distract if he gets wound up. The only thing that has been effective with him for the past year, and still is, is talking things out and explaining. If he gets why something is a certain way, he'll listen. People give me flack for discussing and reasoning with a three year old, but I know what works for my child and what doesn't. I've seen other kids his age and have confirmed that they react very differently, how most are so easy to redirect or distract when upset, while he gets stuck on something and can't move past it. Point is, all kids are different. Unless you're willing to come over and take over the parenting for a few weeks, don't tell parents how they're doing everything wrong.
Sigh....yes, there are most definitely children who do not follow a mold. I had a couple who would NOT nap and bedtimes were not an "easy" time...ever. Those same children are adults now and still struggle with sleep issues...ahem, like their mother. LOL Uh oh, seeing a trend here? Sometimes, that's just the way it is. I couldn't take naps as a child. It was TORTURE to be sent for nap time, because it mean that I had to be in bed while I was asleep. Seriously, I'm over 50 years old and still remember the horrors of having to lie down during the day to "take a nap". BTW....never recall ever falling asleep. Lo and behold, I had two kids who were/are the same way.
Now....I have a grandson whose mother battles with him over nap and bedtime. It's friggin' torture!!!! and so frustrating. I feel for you EC.....I really feel for you.
I have to chuckle as I read this. Who would need help when your children sleep 3 hours a day and both parents home all afternoon and evening?
Obviously I had days when I haven't had this - my husband might have to work OT, and there are days (usually rainy ones) when they are too wired to nap. My daughter in particular only started on this extended afternoon nap recently, because I weaned her off of her morning nap to ensure she slept better in the afternoon.
Point being... I put a great amount of effort in to make sure my kids get enough sleep. When they don't, they will throw epic tantrums and be miserable in general... like most kids. 12 hours a night prior to kindergarten is actually recommended, and if my kids want a nap at this age, they will certainly continue to have one.
Again, I'm a pretty strict parent. My son, who is only just about to turn three, know that if he chooses not to nap, he is to play quietly in bed, which he happily chooses some days. He will lie in bed (quietly, to not disturb his sister) and play with his cars, sometimes falling asleep, sometimes not.
The issue I see with the OP is she is letting her kid rule the roost. It seems a bit late for this, but she might consider reading, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" and if she does choose to have another, an awesome one for very young "sleep training" (not cry it out) is "Bringing Up Bebe."
Back to the quote... why would I be so masochistic to let two cranky kids determine their own schedule? They're babies, and don't know what's best for them yet. That's part of my job as being their mother... to parent.
Part of it may just be the luck of having kids who nap easily, but some of it is good time management by both parents. Dad goes to work early so he can get home early. Mom makes a daily schedule a priority, and schedules a few minutes for her self. She counts curling her hair as "me time!" Compare that to the OP complaining about going to the gym 2 nights/week.
Thanks, this is it, right on the nose.
My husband made the choice to work earlier hours (again, OP, this is called being a responsible father, assuming your husband had the option - sounds like he should, based on how you described his company). I developed a schedule around what I've observed my kids need in terms of activity levels and potential crankiness, and my kids are generally happy (we'll ignore the joys of teething, lol).
Prior to hitting about 10 weeks pregnant with #3, I actually went to the gym five days a week. It was fantastic for all involved... I joined the local Y, which had two hours of free childcare daily. My kids were on a playground or in a huge playroom for an hour, burning off plenty of energy and socializing, learning to get instruction from people other than myself and DH, and I got to enjoy cardio chisel classes, etc. I made sure to do it when it wasn't naptime for either of them (worked out well, I tried out many different classes as a result) and the kids had a complete blast.
As for curling my hair... let's just say I have been either pregnant, or breastfeeding since mid 2009 - we wanted three kids, and for them to be fairly close in age. Took me till about six months ago (when I saw the gym really paying off) to say, "Let's stave off any potential for depression, and put in some effort to look nice, for myself." Oddly, I found that I am happier, and parent better (much more patience) when I look nice - go figure. Plus, it's relaxing to be able to get ready without children running around.. heck, it's nice to use the bathroom without an audience, LOL.
Whow, stop there! Your kids nap for 3 hours, AND then go to bed at 7:30, just 2.5 hrs after they wake up?? AND then sleep almost 12 hrs till 7? I mean I get the one year old, but the almost-3 year old?
There's just no way that my son would go to sleep that early. He needs at least 5 hrs or so from waking up from nap to bedtime, and he's taken to sleeping no more than 10 hrs at night. So if he skips his nap, he's cranky by 6 and in bed by 7:30-8 and then up at 6 am - which is absolute death for me. So usually he'll nap from about 2 to 4, and then we'll get him in bed by 9, but if he's not tired enough he often won't fall asleep till 10...
Same here. 10.5 hours a night max and a 2 hour nap on good days.
No matter how well my husband manages his time, he will not be home at 3:30pm. These crazy, selfish hospitals don't allow flex time. And it's probably much easier to leave your kids to their own devices for several hours when you have more than 1. I'm working on telling my son "it's time to play on your own". But yes, it's something I have to teach him because it does not come naturally. Often if he sees me, he then wants me to come and play. And my house is small and open so he sees me no matter what.
There are so many examples in this thread of the very thing that makes mothering so hard. Sanctimonious, perfect Mommies who think every child acts exactly the same way. Sure the OP (and any honest parent) is making some mistakes. But having a child with a difficult personality isn't one of them. Sleep training worked for us but it doesn't work for everyone.
The issue I see with the OP is she is letting her kid rule the roost. It seems a bit late for this, but she might consider reading, "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" and if she does choose to have another, an awesome one for very young "sleep training" (not cry it out) is "Bringing Up Bebe."
Back to the quote... why would I be so masochistic to let two cranky kids determine their own schedule? They're babies, and don't know what's best for them yet. That's part of my job as being their mother... to parent.
In general, it sounds like the kid may be calling the shots instead of the parent calling the shots.
Same here. 10.5 hours a night max and a 2 hour nap on good days.
No matter how well my husband manages his time, he will not be home at 3:30pm. These crazy, selfish hospitals don't allow flex time. And it's probably much easier to leave your kids to their own devices for several hours when you have more than 1. I'm working on telling my son "it's time to play on your own". But yes, it's something I have to teach him because it does not come naturally. Often if he sees me, he then wants me to come and play. And my house is small and open so he sees me no matter what.
There are so many examples in this thread of the very thing that makes mothering so hard. Sanctimonious, perfect Mommies who think every child acts exactly the same way. Sure the OP (and any honest parent) is making some mistakes. But having a child with a difficult personality isn't one of them. Sleep training worked for us but it doesn't work for everyone.
So it's sanctimonious to explain how we put in work to get our kids used to a routine? Puh-leese. My two kids are day and night... and yet they can grasp, even at a year old, what a routine is. If my stubborn, contrary daughter can manage it, any child can. It takes effort. It takes using up some of your "me time" to not go to the gym, but read a book, go to forums and ask questions, and do what you can. I can only speak for my own experiences, and I'm not the one making a thread pleading for help raising a single child with an uncooperative husband. I gave advice, some great book recommendations, and a sample of how I make it work for my own family - which is the only family I am an expert on. But yes, effort, lots and lots of effort and research, has resulted in my children taking naps and sleeping 12 hours at night. If you read some of the books I mentioned, you'll find that it isn't all that uncommon among kids whose parents put a great emphasis on establishing great sleep patterns.
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