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So it's sanctimonious to explain how we put in work to get our kids used to a routine? Puh-leese. My two kids are day and night... and yet they can grasp, even at a year old, what a routine is. If my stubborn, contrary daughter can manage it, any child can. It takes effort. It takes using up some of your "me time" to not go to the gym, but read a book, go to forums and ask questions, and do what you can. I can only speak for my own experiences, and I'm not the one making a thread pleading for help raising a single child with an uncooperative husband. I gave advice, some great book recommendations, and a sample of how I make it work for my own family - which is the only family I am an expert on. But yes, effort, lots and lots of effort and research, has resulted in my children taking naps and sleeping 12 hours at night. If you read some of the books I mentioned, you'll find that it isn't all that uncommon among kids whose parents put a great emphasis on establishing great sleep patterns.
So, when you go to forums and ask questions it's research. But when the OP does it it's pleading for help raising a child. And just one child at that! Clearly she is a failure if she can't take care of one, lone little child. Everyone knows the first one is easy.
And all the effort and rule making in the world won't make a child who doesn't need 12 hours of sleep sleep for 12 hours.
Let me ask you this: does the SAHM find enjoyment in her "career"? 'Cause I thought she was.
So you're saying that if someone finds enjoyment in their work, whatever that is, they shouldn't feel tired after doing it. They are having fun all day at work, they feel as if they are "on vacation" given how much they see their occupation like a hobby... and they are so grateful someone is at home during the day to mind the house while they're having fun.
Nope, didn't say any of that. Even though work is tough, people still enjoy it. Kinda sad you can't see that.
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Originally Posted by syracusa
Yet...the same cannot be applied to the SAH job. That one is supposed to be "the toughest job you'll ever love", yet she needs lots of respite after hours because her work, even though it was awesome, fulll of those "mommy and me" moments...it is still much more tiring than anything anyone would do at work.
Nope, never said that either.
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Originally Posted by syracusa
Unless you do work under "hobby" conditions (no obligations, no deadlines, no pressure, only when the spirit moves you) ...any kind of work WILL BE tiring and will require some rest throughout the day, no matter how much you love it. Especially when an entire family's livelihood depends on doing it WELL and doing it IN TIME.
Nope, never said that. Never said it wouldn't be tiring, or demanding. Never said you shouldn't do it properly or "in time".
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Originally Posted by syracusa
Does that provide any better perspective of how desperate and ridiculous your argument is?
What argument? It's a fact that many people enjoy work, love work, hell, some people live for work.
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Originally Posted by syracusa
I do understand sometimes people hit a wall where they just hear things they don't want to hear no matter how true those things are. Then they desperately try to come up with some "grasp-at-straw" justification or even more satisfying, a personal attack ("Argh, I caught you - you don't enjoy YOUR career and this is why you say what you say!").
Well, why do you say what you say? Your life sounds thoroughly miserable, quite frankly. And according to you people in the middle class that enjoy working are too few to even count, so why would you be one of them?
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Originally Posted by syracusa
The fact that a person who is allowed to be THE BOSS all day long at home, all while having a million modern conveniences that spare her/him of the historical drudgery of feeding a family and keeping a an entire household together...cannot find some time to rest during the day?...
That just smells fishy. So seriously. Let it go.
This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone who works is an employee.
Nope, didn't say any of that. Even though work is tough, people still enjoy it. Kinda sad you can't see that.
Nope, never said that either.
Nope, never said that. Never said it wouldn't be tiring, or demanding. Never said you shouldn't do it properly or "in time".
What argument? It's a fact that many people enjoy work, love work, hell, some people live for work.
Well, why do you say what you say? Your life sounds thoroughly miserable, quite frankly. And according to you people in the middle class that enjoy working are too few to even count, so why would you be one of them?
This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone who works is an employee.
You implied everything mentioned above - and now you think you "fixed it" by saying "never said that". Not good enough.
Not being an employee can be even tougher than being one. Free market competition has a way of keeping you and your small business on your toes even better than a boss has.
Never mind that most middle class people ARE employees.
Never mind that you don't know squat about my life.
Never mind that even if it was as miserable as you think it is - this would have 0 relevance to the discussion.
Never mind that using cheap linguistic frills such as "this may come as a shock to you" makes your argument look even more meager than it actually is.
But keep grasping at personal attacks and exceptions to the rule to "stay in the game".
You implied everything mentioned above - and now you think you "fixed it" by saying "never said that". Not good enough.
Not being an employee can be even tougher than being one. Free market competition has a way of keeping you and your small business on your toes even better than a boss has.
Never mind that most middle class people ARE employees.
Never mind that you don't know squat about my life.
Never mind that even if it was as miserable as you think it is - this would have 0 relevance to the discussion.
Never mind that using cheap linguistic frills such as "this may come as a shock to you" makes your argument look even more meager than it actually is.
But keep grasping at personal attacks and exceptions to the rule to "stay in the game".
I did not imply any of those things. ALL I said, was that many people do in fact enjoy working. You extrapolated the rest.
I'm fully aware that being self employed keeps you on your toes. Doesn't mean people don't enjoy it, love it, live for it. Even if it is hard.
There are thousands upon thousands of small businesses in this country, and they are all owned by someone.
Quote:
For the vast majority of middle-class people in society (non-rich), work is a chore, it is effort, it is energy-draining and it is a necessity - not FUN.
I'm simply saying that the above statement is BS.
I interact with many people on a daily basis who adore what they do for a living. Is it always fun? No. Is it exhausting? Yes. Is it a heavy burden at times, the responsibility? Yes.
But they would do it whether or not they had a partner and kids at home. So I take issue with the picture you paint of the working spouse being a martyred slave to their dependents the "vast majority" of the time. You generalize, just as you accuse others of doing. It's tiresome.
This is exactly why young men today are increasingly apprehensive to commit to marriage, unless the woman can bring something "heavy" to the deal, which for today's man is usually:
- being a trophy (very attractive...works well for those with masculinity/ego issues).
- being a co-provider (for most other young men).
The truth that may or may not hurt enough is that men no longer get any deal by entering a marriage structured to be traditional in form (with a SAH wife) yet one that is NOT traditional in substance (the women no longer pumps economically into the household but mainly consumes).
He will have to PROVIDE for an entire family with an increasing appetite for consumption, at a time when the male paycheck is losing in purchase power by the day, all while being asked to "pull his share" in the evening in the domestic area - because the SAHW/M was somehow busy during the day doing "mommy and me" time, and after kids turn 5, a lot lot of just "me time".
Nobody wants to talk about this elephant in the room because it challenges the feminist brainwashing of "women should support other women no matter what".
But the decrease in marriage rates and the reports of young women in the dating/marriage market according to which "men just no longer want to commit" or that "men want the woman to be independent/have a career of their own" ...speak for themselves.
I know for sure I would NOT want to enter an arrangement where I am left with the entire responsibility of keeping alive 4-5 people, and after work I need to start a second shift because my partner did...I don't know what during the day.
This is complete BS. Kids belong to a mom and a dad. Kids need to bond with both mom and dad. They need to know that both mom and dad are there for them and are willing and able to care for them. Feeding, bathing, putting to bed, and interacting with the kids is the job of both parents. Why should dad's job stop at 5pm and moms go on 24/7?
So, when you go to forums and ask questions it's research. But when the OP does it it's pleading for help raising a child. And just one child at that! Clearly she is a failure if she can't take care of one, lone little child. Everyone knows the first one is easy.
And all the effort and rule making in the world won't make a child who doesn't need 12 hours of sleep sleep for 12 hours.
No, when I ask questions on a forum, I don't become indignant when people offer suggestions. After all, I asked for them. I say thank you, ask further explanation if needed, and figure it out on my own from there.
When your child hits three, you should have some of basic understanding of his needs. A few pages ago, another poster said that the OP created the problem - she did, exactly that, by giving in to the whining, the tantrums, etc. Her child now knows how to get what he wants - by throwing fits, by screaming at bed and naptimes.
I'm a fairly logical person - I'm an electrical engineer when I am in the workforce, as is my husband. Kids might not always be logical in what they do, but how you respond is what will eventually influence their actions. Ever hear of the parents who claim their kid is a terror, won't eat anything except certain foods, won't nap, can't be brought to stores because of how they behave... and then, when with other caregivers, act like angels? Often times, the child knows exactly how different people will act and treat them. The only people my son tends to not listen to are his new instructors at Little Gym - because they don't treat disobeying instructions as a big deal. The proof is in the pudding.
Oh, and effort and rule making will certainly make a child respect "quiet time." You can't force a kid to sleep, only encourage it - but you can certainly enforce resting quietly in bed, either reading a book or playing with some toys, so a sibling sharing a room can sleep without a problem.
Btw, enjoy your job or not, be tired or not, feel pressure or not, any relationship in which there is no consideration for what the other person does or any relationship where "I don't wanna do that cuz it ain't my job," or any relationship in which compromise is not part of the picture...well, that's freaking doomed.
syracusa, I would never have wanted children if I was supposed to be the only parent, which seems to be what you are describing. My husband and I "work" at our jobs for 9 hours a day - his job being an engineer, mine being caretaker of our kids. After that, it's a joint effort, otherwise, he might as well have been a sperm donor.
That said, I worked for the first 7 months of my son's life - in fact, DH and I carpooled since our companies were so close to each other. We both took on equal care of our son when we got home, and there was no reason for that to stop when I stayed at home.
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I say thank you, ask further explanation if needed, and figure it out on my own from there.
