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Old 10-28-2018, 09:16 AM
 
29,509 posts, read 14,668,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
The reduced VAT rates are 0% and 5% in the UK, whilst the ordinary rate is 20%, however not just essentials a lot of other non essential goods and services are either zero rate exempt or 5%.

VAT rates on different goods and services - GOV.UK

The US has a massive budget deficit which will be more than $1 trillion in 2019, and which is being made worse by trillions of dollars in tax cuts.

The US also has high spending in relation to military spending of over $700 Billion, and the prison population takes up the best part of another $100 Billion and the you have vast intelligence agencies like the NSA, Homeland Security, Space Programmes and indeed the Space Force, so you are looking at the best part of $1 Trillion if you add this lot together. Which is vastly more than what other countries spend.

Then you have health insurance to buy on top of any taxes, and they have sales tax in the US, although in the UK it's added as part of the overall price rather than at the check out till.

Health Insurance in the Netherlands is subsidised by the Government and the average bill is far more reasnable than in the US.

The basic health care plan in the Netherlands will cost € 100-120, which is arounf $115 to $140.

If you’re employed, your employer will also pay a small percentage towards medical coverage as well.

The Dutch System is explained very well on the website below -

Healthcare in the Netherlands: A guide to the Dutch healthcare system
You can't just say "The basic health care plan in the Netherlands will cost € 100-120, which is around $115 to $140." because it depends on your income.

A few pages back i posted this. From what i can tell, everyone is responsible for 27% to pay into the national healthcare system.
Then personal income tax is added, again, it depends on what your income is.
If one makes over 68k euro, their tax rate is 51%, which the 27% is included.

https://www.tax-consultants-internat...2&submenu=4772

I stand by this, it would be cheaper for some, but not all. Those with higher incomes will be easing the burden on those without, which i don't completely agree with.
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:17 PM
 
4,019 posts, read 3,954,867 times
Reputation: 2938
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
People used to die of diseases that are now treatable and often curable. This costs $$$.

Total BS. Is that your lame excuse for hospitals charging $300 for a hospital gown and $100 for a couple of aspirin? Why are Americans paying 5 to 10 times as much for the exact same prescription drugs as people do in Canada? Healthcare costs at least twice as much in the US than anywhere else and yet we have one of the lowest life expectancies than any industrialized country. So your premise, that greater costs results in better health outcomes, doesn't hold water.
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:46 PM
 
18,805 posts, read 8,479,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Total BS. Is that your lame excuse for hospitals charging $300 for a hospital gown and $100 for a couple of aspirin? Why are Americans paying 5 to 10 times as much for the exact same prescription drugs as people do in Canada? Healthcare costs at least twice as much in the US than anywhere else and yet we have one of the lowest life expectancies than any industrialized country. So your premise, that greater costs results in better health outcomes, doesn't hold water.

Like middle-aged mom said, one major reason costs are so high is because people used to die of now treatable diseases. And those treatments can be very expensive. $100K-$M easily. And not just in the USA, but world over.

In the '60's a heart attack was 2 weeks in the hospital, watch and see. Now it could be nipped in the bud ER and cath lab. Not cheap, but millions have benefited. In the USA and world over. In the '60's many cancers were a death sentence. No longer. But treatments are very complex, risky themselves and expensive. Millions have benefited in the USA and world over.

And also like she says, we pay more in the USA because of our epidemic of obesity and its long term elevated HC risks and costs.

Yes we pay more than about anywhere. And yes we don't have all the best outcomes.

But I remain optimistic and believe that Americans will eventually figure it all out.
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:48 PM
 
29,509 posts, read 14,668,503 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by cisco kid View Post
Total BS. Is that your lame excuse for hospitals charging $300 for a hospital gown and $100 for a couple of aspirin? Why are Americans paying 5 to 10 times as much for the exact same prescription drugs as people do in Canada? Healthcare costs at least twice as much in the US than anywhere else and yet we have one of the lowest life expectancies than any industrialized country. So your premise, that greater costs results in better health outcomes, doesn't hold water.
Agreed, drug prices are out of control. Hopefully we will see some changes.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings...r-drug-prices/
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Old 10-28-2018, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,177,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
Patients who were scheduled for surgery have to find a new doctor and start the process all over. Patients who were admitted, have to be transferred to other hospitals.

Hospitals in the US have been closing or merging forever, so the expectation that a private hospital in system with socialized insurance -- but not socialized healthcare -- is hardly a shocker.


The Royal Dutch government does not manage healthcare, it only manages the insurance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
The choice of a primary doctor has to be in a certain zip code. Good luck to people who don’t live in the best areas. You will be stuck with the government telling you who your doctor will be!

That's true, and that's a poor decision by the Royal Dutch government.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bentlebee View Post
Long wait time for treatments and for even seeing a doctor!

That's true, and it's been a problem in the Netherlands for some time.



A 2012 healthcare report analyzing 2010 data reported 25% to 33% experience lengthy wait times, so they are cognizant and working on the problem, but it wasn't really resolved.
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Old 10-28-2018, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,567,829 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
There are two nice, newish hospitals in northern New Brunswick (which has socialized health care). Their nurses have had to work 36 hour shifts this summer and fall just to keep units open. This week, the government announced it had to temporarily close the obstetric units, as the hospitals didn't have adequate nurse and physician staffing. Pregnant women will have to drive 75 to 100 miles to deliver at other hospitals!!

Meanwhile just across the border in northern Maine, even tiny towns have an obstetrics unit 20 miles away or closer. And we have had never had anything close to this kind of disruption. (And the obstetric providers are excellent....from firsthand experience with my wife and kids).

This kind of crap happens in the medical world over in New Brunswick all the time. The wait lists are obscene there. People die waiting for ambulances.

Remind me again how great socialized health care is......
Wow talk about misleading people by leaving out important facts.

First off nursing shortages have nothing to do with Universal Healthcare. You have the same issue in the US.

"A Nebraska hospital has closed its doors due to a nursing shortage, "

https://www.nurse.com/blog/2017/06/1...others-abroad/

So your WHOLE premise is incorrect.

Temporarily closed, yes. Just leaving that hanging may give someone they closed for weeks. One hospital it's just under two days, the other five days.

Another point, is that the government does NOT get involved in the day to day running of hospitals. The decision to temporarily close the units came from the health authorities employed to run the hospital on behalf of the government. In this case Horizon Health Network and Vitalité Health Network.

Here is the story if people want to read it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...ures-1.4874601

New Brunswick' s ambulance service is run by a PRIVATE company called Ambulance New Brunswick, run by
Medavie Health Services New Brunswick Inc.

Each province runs their own healthcare. In BC ambulances are run by the province.

People die waiting for ambulance in all sort of systems. It's not indicative or only a UHC issue.

https://www.recordnet.com/news/20170...-in-boys-death


Try again.

Last edited by Natnasci; 10-28-2018 at 07:22 PM..
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Old 10-28-2018, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,177,123 times
Reputation: 21743
Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse78 View Post
I remember reading that hospitals were formed because a religious community would gather and have fund raisers so they can raise the money to send their brightest and best people of the communities to college to become doctors and study medicine, then they would come back to the communities and build hospitals so the sick can go there and heal. It's why so many hospitals today are named after some religious saint, and will have the Jesus Christ cross as the official emblem of healing centers.
That is not why.

Hospitals never healed a damn thing.

It is true that nearly every single Catholic religious order founded large numbers of hospitals, as did the synods for the Methodist, Baptist, Anabaptist, Presbyterian and Lutheran sects, and Jewish groups.

A typical hospital would like St Francis Hospital for the Incurables.

Hospitals were hospices -- you went there to die, not get healed.

If you needed surgery or a limb amputated, your doctor did that in his office, not the hospital.

It was only after the Civil War that surgeries started to be occasionally performed in hospitals.

Most surgeries were actually successful. It was the post-surgical complications from infection that resulted in death, because no antibiotics existed, and the surgical environment was hardly sterile.

It was the X-ray machine that made the big change.

People started going to hospitals for X-rays for broken bones, instead of having the doctor come to them, and yes, doctors usually always came to your home, and they did up until the 1950s, but doctors in rural areas continued to make house calls into the 1960s.

It wasn't until the 1920s that hospitals became half hospice and half healing, and then a few decades later they pretty much abandoned the hospice function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse78 View Post
When did our medical industry go from wanting to heal to wanting to bankrupt the world with outrageous costs of medical care?
When your federal and State governments and the American Hospital Association screwed the pooch.

Your healthcare system is screwed up solely because your governments made 5 major egregious errors.

In the 1920s there arose a long standing feud between doctors and hospitals.

Doctors aligned with the American Medical Association (AMA) and wanted total and complete control.

If a doctor thought that the best interests of the patient were served by performing a particular surgery at Good Samaritan Hospital, then that is where doctor and patient should be.

But, if the doctor thought the patient's best interests were served by performing the surgery at St Francis, or St George, or Mercy or Bethesda or Christ or Jewish or Deaconess or Provident Hospitals, then doctor and patient should be free to go to anyone of those hospitals for the surgery.

Doctors also charged a sliding-scale fee. If you were poor, maybe you'd pay $0.50 for a house-call, but if you were a little better off, maybe $0.70 and if you were rich, maybe a whole $1 (and that's what some doctors actually charged).

The American Hospital Association (AHA) had a different view.

The AHA demanded total control over doctors and that they own doctors. A doctor performs surgeries at this hospital only, and no other, if and when the hospital decrees the surgery should be performed.

The AHA charged a flat fee for all patients regardless of income and demanded doctors do the same.

In the 1920s, hospitals started aligning with the AMA or AHA. 80% of hospitals were AHA-members, and 20% were AMA-members.

In 1929, the hospital at Baylor University issued the first ever pre-paid hospitalization plan, and it was for teachers in Dallas County, Texas. It cost $6 for $22,000 of hospital healthcare.

Within months, nearly every hospital was offering pre-paid hospitalization plans. Note that insurance companies did not offer healthcare plans.

Around 1932, the AHA started grouping member-hospitals together in metropolitan areas across the US. The plans were standardized with the same fee, instead of each hospital issuing its own plan at different fees. AMA hospitals followed suit.

The States recognized those plans for what they were, which is insurance, and of course States were looking to increase their revenues during the Great Depression, so they wanted the hospitals to come under State insurance regulations and maintain the cash and assets reserves required for insurance.

The AHA lobbied the States for "enabling laws" that exempted the hospitals from insurance regulation, and also allowed them to operate as monopolies and cartels, under the guise they would provide free healthcare for low-income patients.

The AHA now created the "Out-of-Network" policy.

The AHA would only accept plans from AHA-member hospitals, and not AMA-member hospitals in order to drive the AMA-member hospitals out of business.

That was the 1st major mistake.

The 2nd major mistake comes when FDR levies Wage & Price Controls to combat Wage Inflation. Price controls are acceptable, but wage controls are not. To give you a pay raise, your employer must now receive prior written authorization from the National Labor Board.

To get around that, employers started offering to pay for pre-paid hospitalization plans. You chose the plan, not your employer: your employer simply paid all or part of it as compensation in lieu of wages.

The 3rd major error comes when the now-turned National War Labor Board declares pre-paid hospitalization plans as fringe benefits in 1942, much to the chagrin of the IRS.

In 1946, the AHA created the Blue Cross, and collectively converted all plans from AHA-member hospitals into Blue Cross plans.

The AHA's "Out-of-Network" policy remained in effect.

The AMA followed suit a few months later with the creation of the Blue Shield.

The long-running feud between the AHA and AMA is now more intense than ever.

The 4th major error is the 1949 US Supreme Court In Re: Inland Steel decision.

You're no longer allowed to choose your own plan, because your employer now does that for you, whether you like it or not.

Thank you federal government for screwing Americans.

The 5th major error your governments made is the 1954 IRS Tax Code.

Some insurance companies jumped into the healthcare field in 1946 with the creation of the Blue Cross, but after 1949 they were all in it.

The insurance companies provided life-insurance coupled with catastrophic health insurance, the only type of insurance available at the time.

It worked like this: you pay premiums for 10 years, and 10 years only, and then you never pay another dime for the rest of your life, but you and your spouse (and minor children) are covered until the day you die.

When you die, your named beneficiaries get $100,000 (which today is about $1 Million).

If you used $25,000 worth of health insurance, then your named beneficiaries would get $75,000 (worth about $750,000 today).

What a fantastic way for low-income and middle-income families to build wealth and pass that wealth on to their children or grandchildren.

Problem: the AHA's Blue Cross is not a true insurance company, and cannot offer life-insurance coupled with catastrophic health coverage.

The AHA's Blue Cross market share dropped from 80% to 54% in just two years, with the hemorrhaging continuing.

The AHA lobbied Congress to change the tax laws to prevent low-income and middle-income families from generating wealth and passing it on.

Thank you federal government and AHA for screwing Americans.


That's why your healthcare system is screwed up.
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Old 10-28-2018, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,567,829 times
Reputation: 11937
Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
When young, my brother in law was diagnosed with a serious, deadly brain condition in Toronto. Socialized medicine promised him a four-month wait list for surgery (which was most likely a death sentence). Fortunately, my future in-laws had enough money to beat feet to Ohio and have him treated there ASAP.

Twenty-five years later, he is alive and well.
Hmmm. I always find stories like this suspect. In Canada if someone is in dire need of a procedure, especially something like brain surgery, and the person or family feels that a wait means death, they go to the media.
It would make headlines.

Also, in stories like these, do you honestly believe that a brain surgeon would take a chance on a patient that needed surgery immediately? That doctor would go to the media as well and make a big stink. Especially a child.

My experience with people I know that have had brain tumours, and other cancers, is that they were seen immediately. In the case of my mother's brain tumour, there was NO waiting for anything.

In the case of a friend with throat cancer. There was no waiting.

In the case of another friend who had a brain tumour there was no waiting.

I could go on, but I'll let you take some time to think up more stuff to push your agenda.
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Old 10-28-2018, 08:15 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,500,035 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Hmmm. I always find stories like this suspect. In Canada if someone is in dire need of a procedure, especially something like brain surgery, and the person or family feels that a wait means death, they go to the media.
It would make headlines.

Also, in stories like these, do you honestly believe that a brain surgeon would take a chance on a patient that needed surgery immediately? That doctor would go to the media as well and make a big stink. Especially a child.

My experience with people I know that have had brain tumours, and other cancers, is that they were seen immediately. In the case of my mother's brain tumour, there was NO waiting for anything.

In the case of a friend with throat cancer. There was no waiting.

In the case of another friend who had a brain tumour there was no waiting.

I could go on, but I'll let you take some time to think up more stuff to push your agenda.


Here's a question for the poster you're dealing with Nat: Given the degree of familiarity with the American healthcare system that Canadians have through long term tourism involving thousands of us wintering each winter in their country; why do you think there are any number of threads indeed vociferous debate about the American healthcare system and it's abysmal performance while virtually none of that exists regarding Canada's by Canadians?

It's a safe bet that there are millions more Canadians with up-close and personal knowledge of the American system through decades of travel there.

What we get from Americans are these anecdotal fantasies that serve no relevant purpose whatsoever. All you have to do on these very boards is segue up to the Health Insurance section of the HEALTH boards to get all the horror stories one could possibly want to read serving very handily to contradicting their nonsense.

Don't be a whimp Americans, just go on up there and peruse the archives going back to the start of CityData...it's an eye-opener.

Finally; why aren't Canadians clamouring in the millions to change to what the U.S. has instead of millions of Americans clamouring to change to what Canada has ...single payer?


I'll tell you why....because we're not frikken stupid, that's why.

Last edited by BruSan; 10-28-2018 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 10-28-2018, 08:40 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,500,035 times
Reputation: 16962
https://www.bustle.com/p/these-20-st...e-access-56259

Lack of Health Insurance is Deadly: Annals of Internal Medicine | Physicians for a National Health Program

Lack of health insurance and U.S. mortality | Physicians for a National Health Program
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