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First of all - play nice, folks. Geez. Seems like too many moderators have had to do some deleting in here and it's gettin' old for lots of folks I'd bet. Debate without attacking.
That being said, whether or not you voted for this or that candidate, maybe we're about to enter a slightly more enlightened age where people realize we are all AMERICANS, and stop segregating and separating themselves into tiny little this-or-that groups that bicker and degrade each other back and forth all the time.
Need I remind you, we now live in times where SOME folks have absolutely no moral problem flying a jetliner into a building and taking out thousands of Americans at a time. If and when they can, they will do the same (or worse) at a mall or public square or school. They don't care if you're gay or not, male, female, or even if you have both parts. They don't care if you label yourself as a liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, Saint or Neo-Nazi, or if you're a child or adult. They want you dead simply because you're American. I can promise you, a couple of gay guys wanting to get married isn't going to affect your life AT ALL, but someone who wants to set off a dirty bomb in the middle of a business district you work in, sure as heck will. Learn to recognize the real threats.
If Americans are separated into 1000 different groups who constantly take jabs at each other and form committees to control each other, they cannot focus on the REAL threats in the world that have an effect on all of our safety. I suggest everyone make their next New Year resolution to sort these things out in their heads, and prioritize what our Nation's REAL problems and threats are - not who is sleeping with who, who's partnered with who, or who voted for who. Otherwise, one day you might find yourself as a refugee in Mexico or Canada because someone took advantage of our segregationalist mentality when we weren't looking.
Gay and Lesbian people are not seeking to change the world or to have special rights... They want to have equal rights...
We (you) already have equal rights. You have the exact same rights as we do. What you are asking for are, in fact, special rights. We do not have the right to marry same-sex either. By wanting that exemption, you are asking for special rights.
[quote=Debbiets;7101192]. ... They want a life free of hate crimes.../quote]
Again, an example of special rights. You want a crime commited against you to be treated differently. Why is anyones life or property worth more than another? Why should the punishment for, say, robbery be more severe if it is against you as opposed to me?
I agree with most of what you said, EXCEPT for this line...
"I can promise you, a couple of gay guys wanting to get married isn't going to affect your life AT ALL..."
Well, it's sure not worthy of continuing to debate with folks who can only see through narrow straw-sized tunnels.
If I'm married and have kids, drive them to school in my nerdy SUV, and go to my job and pay my taxes on my house that needs new siding, I'd sure like someone to prove to me how the two gay men a block away getting married have an effect on my life. Will I lose my SUV? Will my kids be taken away from me, or will their schools be closed? Will the siding companies close down so I can't get the siding I need?
People today worry about the weirdest junk. I don't care if the Jews open a synagogue down the street. I don't care if Jill and Janet want to get married. I could care less if I see someone's butt on TV at 10pm at night. I do care if today's kids will have social security benefits, or be able to afford health care. I do care if some terrorist nutcase winds up nuking my home town, and I really care if my job will last another year because of all the idiots out there who bought homes they couldn't afford who are now foreclosing on them.
So I've been reading this argument for some time and I'm trying to figure out how a couple of guys or gals who want to marry each other are supposed to cause the collapse of my family unit and my life, which has nothing to do with those guys or gals. Wow people - I mean,
I'm of the opinion that a business owner should have full discretion in who he hires, fires, promotes, etc, with his reasons being his own. If you don't like how a company works, you're welcome to go start your own or find one that you agree with.
If I want to fire you because I don't like how you greet customers, or how you shake hands with clients, that's my business. If I want to fire you because I think you drink too much at parties, or because I know you're having an extra-marital affair and it will cause clients to lose confidence (if/when they find out), that's my business. If I want to fire you because I believe your gay lifestyle will drive away some clients, that's my business.
Somebody who puts in the time and energy to have their own business, should be given discretion in how they run it (short of being allowed to use their corporation/business as a cover/front for a criminal conspiracy).
If you want the government to tell you how to run every aspect of your business, you might consider moving to the Peoples Republic of China or to Cuba.
I'm of the opinion that a business owner should have full discretion in who he hires, fires, promotes, etc, with his reasons being his own. If you don't like how a company works, you're welcome to go start your own or find one that you agree with.
If I want to fire you because I don't like how you greet customers, or how you shake hands with clients, that's my business. If I want to fire you because I think you drink too much at parties, or because I know you're having an extra-marital affair and it will cause clients to lose confidence (if/when they find out), that's my business. If I want to fire you because I believe your gay lifestyle will drive away some clients, that's my business.
Somebody who puts in the time and energy to have their own business, should be given discretion in how they run it (short of being allowed to use their corporation/business as a cover/front for a criminal conspiracy).
If you want the government to tell you how to run every aspect of your business, you might consider moving to the Peoples Republic of China or to Cuba.
Well said. Sadly, the ability to do anything free of government intervention is but a memory.
If I want to fire you because I believe your gay lifestyle will drive away some clients, that's my business.
Who would you be hiring - drag queens?
We have "at least" (that we know of) three gay people at the company where I work. This is the construction business. No one knew about any of them were gay until frankly, people started thinking, "Hey, you know Bob doesn't ever talk about getting any on the weekends or going to Hooters - do ya think....?", (again, construction), and they just flat-out ASKED the guys if they were or not. They acknowledged they were. Some odd moments with a few guys, but shortly thereafter it was a nonissue, and our clients and customers sure as heck have no clue what the sex preferences of our workers are.
So, what kind of business do you own, that your clients are aware of the sexual lifestyles of the employees there? That sounds like an odd business if you discuss these things with your clients.
We have "at least" (that we know of) three gay people at the company where I work. This is the construction business. No one knew about any of them were gay until frankly, people started thinking, "Hey, you know Bob doesn't ever talk about getting any on the weekends or going to Hooters - do ya think....?", (again, construction), and they just flat-out ASKED the guys if they were or not. They acknowledged they were. Some odd moments with a few guys, but shortly thereafter it was a nonissue, and our clients and customers sure as heck have no clue what the sex preferences of our workers are.
So, what kind of business do you own, that your clients are aware of the sexual lifestyles of the employees there? That sounds like an odd business if you discuss these things with your clients.
I'm not a business owner, I was speaking in hypotheticals. As for outright asking a co-worker about their sexual experiences, I would say that topic should be off-limits, unless they want to volunteer information, but even then, you'd have to have made it known you want to hear it, which would be awkward. Sexual discussions really have no place in the workplace. People need to act professional and leave certain things at home. However, it seems a lot of gays will go out of their way to make it known they are gay. I've been in workplace environments where I was horribly offended by straight colleagues, who kept talking about what they like to do in regards to position, frequency, etc, to the point where if I had been the manager and had overheard it, I'd have fired them on the spot... Anyway...
I sort of feel the same way about people who engage in extra-marital affairs. This is a hypothetical... If I was the president of a company and it became known to me that some assistant vice president was having an extra-marital affair (even assuming it is not with a company employee), I would most likely fire him on the spot. The last thing prospective clients want to have to worry about, when dealing with some executive, is whether or not the guy will make moves on his wife (or in the case of a female client, herself, or her daughters, etc). I believe that somebody who cannot be trusted to be faithful to his spouse can scarcely be trusted to be faithful to his employer. People who lack character in that regard, typically lack character in all regards, it permeates every aspect of their life.
Although I digress... Ultimately this goes back to individual freedom... Do we extend freedom to business owners, or do we tell them how to manage every aspect of their business? If I want to fire you because your tie looks stupid, or because you cross your legs all the time and most of my clients are Arabs who will see the bottoms of your shoes and be instantly offended, it is really my business...
If you don't want to conform to the standards the company sets, then you don't have to work there. They don't have to change for you; you have to change for them. I wouldn't move to France and demand that everybody learn English and act American so I can feel at home and fit in without any problems. When you want to be accepted somewhere, you play by the rules of the people whose acceptance you are hoping to gain. PERIOD.
Ohio, I understand what you're saying - really, I do. But we do have to ask ourselves exactly where does this "freedom" start and stop, and who decides where to start and stop it?
Examples: I know a lot of business owners due to the work I'm in. A ton of them would LOVE to not hire women... at all - for various reasons. But they do, because it's the law that you can't discriminate. I also know people who think having female employees who have children is like having the plague. I've known fundamentalist Christians who won't hire Jews, or think they can fire someone if they find out the person is an athiest. I've even dealt with one store owner who tried to get away with (and failed) hiring only "attractive white" employees.
Ok, so really, where does it end? I mean, c'mon. If it were legal to fire people simply because of something you didn't like about them personally, or in their home life, no one would have jobs!
If you're a business owner, you just have to have an employee conduct book. It very clearly outlines what is not allowed in the workplace, the type of behavior or conversations (money, sex, etc) that are not allowed, how they're expected to dress, attendance, yadda yadda... you spell it out, make them read it, sign that they've read it, and give them a copy. Very easy. If anyone breaks those rules, doesn't conduct themselves in the appropriate way, etc., you fire them. It shouldn't matter if they're black or white, gay or straight, tall or short, etc... you spell out the rules, and if they break them, they're gone. Who someone sleeps with, worships, plays cards with - it shouldn't be anything that as an owner should at all concern you if it doesn't have any effect on their work performance.
I mean, someone can say they only want white, married, heterosexual, fundamentalist christian workers between 25 and 45 years of age and no more than 10 pounds overweight. Fine, but I'll tell you, your work pool will be awfully small, and you might still be surprised what some of those "perfect" employees do at home, too.
Ohio, I understand what you're saying - really, I do. But we do have to ask ourselves exactly where does this "freedom" start and stop, and who decides where to start and stop it?
Examples: I know a lot of business owners due to the work I'm in. A ton of them would LOVE to not hire women... at all - for various reasons. But they do, because it's the law that you can't discriminate. I also know people who think having female employees who have children is like having the plague. I've known fundamentalist Christians who won't hire Jews, or think they can fire someone if they find out the person is an athiest. I've even dealt with one store owner who tried to get away with (and failed) hiring only "attractive white" employees.
Ok, so really, where does it end? I mean, c'mon. If it were legal to fire people simply because of something you didn't like about them personally, or in their home life, no one would have jobs!
If you're a business owner, you just have to have an employee conduct book. It very clearly outlines what is not allowed in the workplace, the type of behavior or conversations (money, sex, etc) that are not allowed, how they're expected to dress, attendance, yadda yadda... you spell it out, make them read it, sign that they've read it, and give them a copy. Very easy. If anyone breaks those rules, doesn't conduct themselves in the appropriate way, etc., you fire them. It shouldn't matter if they're black or white, gay or straight, tall or short, etc... you spell out the rules, and if they break them, they're gone. Who someone sleeps with, worships, plays cards with - it shouldn't be anything that as an owner should at all concern you if it doesn't have any effect on their work performance.
I mean, someone can say they only want white, married, heterosexual, fundamentalist christian workers between 25 and 45 years of age and no more than 10 pounds overweight. Fine, but I'll tell you, your work pool will be awfully small, and you might still be surprised what some of those "perfect" employees do at home, too.
Just my opinion. Getting back to my room. LOL
If somebody applies the most discriminatory criteria in hiring, and then falls flat on their face, they'll soon modify their criteria, or they'll go out of business, or they'll just barely limp along. The market typically will dictate how people operate their businesses. Most businesses respond to market pressures and market demands, they don't set the market demand, they react to it. For instance, businesses rarely stock a product and then try to push it on you, they stock a product that the consumers want them to stock. Businesses will do what makes money.
About what you said pertaining to women. People may roast me for this, but I am of the opinion that if a woman gets pregnant, the fair thing to do would be keep her job open so she can return to it, but put her on unpaid leave. The idea of being paid without having to work (aside from vacations or recovery time for work-related injuries) really sickens me. If a woman takes off X months to go have her baby, as nice as babies are, the company takes a double whammy as they have to pay her for not working and they either have to suffer from a manpower (no pun intended) shortage, or pay for a temporary replacement. It is rare but I know a few instances of women seriously abusing that system, where they get a job, immediately become pregnant, and then kick back for a few months while the company has to continue to pay them (this is more likely to occur in a nation such as Canada where I believe women are entitled to full maternity leave with full pay). Ultimately this will limit the employment opportunities of women.
As a policy, if I had my way of things, I'd keep a pregnant woman's job open while she goes to have her baby, wish her the best, obviously I wouldn't pay her because she wouldn't be working, and when she came back she'd receive full pay for full work. If she didn't like that sort of deal, she'd be free to clean out her desk and go elsewhere. I sure as heck wouldn't pay a man not to work because he decided to take 4 months off to go deer hunting in Alaska (granted the comparison is rather rough, but the fundamental principle remains the same, NO WORK, NO PAY).
As for the race issues... Quite frankly, race hustlers such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, limit the employment opportunities of blacks. Every boss wants to know that if the guy (or gal) he is about to hire, doesn't work out, he can fire them without much of a hassle. If they hire a white guy and the guy proves to be a jerk, the guy can be fired and there won't be a mob of protestors accompanied by an army of NAACP lawyers raising heck over it. The way Sharpton and Jackson act, the instant a black man is fired, they swarm the company with a mob and slap the owners with lawsuits. If you're very nervous about being able to fire somebody if they don't work out for the company, you might not even hire them to begin with.
It is important to know that if somebody winds up being a screw-up, you can easily fire them. I personally wouldn't have much of a problem with hiring a black, but it is always going to be in my mind if they don't fit in or work properly, firing them will be an uphill battle. I'm not against giving any deserving person a chance to show their stuff, but there is the very real problem that people from some categories are very difficult to get rid of if they don't fit in well with the company. Most managers realize if they fire a white guy, they won't be swarmed by an army of lawyers and demonstrators singing and waving signs. The opposite is often the case when it comes to firing blacks.
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