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Both John and Paul explicitly state that Jesus was God and became man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
God became man.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is speaking of the elohim (Hebrew)theos (Greek equivalent of the Hebrew elohim) which both the Father and the son are part of.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with elohim/theos, and the Word was elohim/theos.
Now one cannot be WITH someone and yet be the same someone.
that is why it goes on to say
The same was in the beginning with God elohim/theos
It is speaking of both the Father and the son.
its the same with your Philippians scripture for if you would have read the rest of it you would have seen these scriptures.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Did Jesus highly exalt himself? No it was His Father who did and this becomes very clear when we read
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God/elohim/theos the Father.
Both the Father and the son are elohim, but they are distinct individuals and the Father outranks the son.
Which is made clear in the scripture you posted
although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped
Does Jesus do his own works or the works of his Father that sent him?
But*if*I do,*though*ye believe*not*me,*believe*the works:*that*ye may know,*and*believe,*that*the Father*is*in*me,*and I*in*him.
now is Jesus saying he is the Father or is he saying the Father is IN him and he is IN the Father.
Don't talk to me about context. Psalm 82 is about the divine council and Jesus was quoting Psalm 82. The divine council refers to angelic beings - elohim. In Psalm 89 the divine council - the assembly of the holy ones is 'in the sky.'' Jewish judges were not in the heavens. God's divine council is in the heavens, not on earth. What Psalms 82 and 89 describe, as with Job 38:7, is a group of heavenly sons of God. Not Jewish leaders. Jesus did not call the Jewish leaders elohim. And yes, the word of God came to the divine council.
The English Standard Version correctly translates Psalm 82:1.
Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Both John and Paul explicitly state that Jesus was God and became man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
God became man.
Explicitly?
God's Word and God's Wisdom were both personified in the OT with no Trinitarian connotation or understanding on the part of the Jews. They were personified aspects of the one God. To say that God's Word became flesh and dwelt among us hardly compels the conclusion that Jesus was God.
Does "existed in the form of God" compel a Trinitarian conclusion or the conclusion that Jesus actually was God? He existed in the form of God but did not regard equality with God as a thing to be grasped - you don't find this a bit troubling?
It seems to me there is confusion between Jesus being "divine" and being God. I have no issue with the notion that he is divine, that he is unique and that has a unique relationship with God. The son of a king is "royal" but he isn't the king. I believe the best reading of all the verses as a whole is that this is what Jesus understood about himself - he was divine and our Lord, but he wasn't God.
Some verses from Ephesians 1: "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ ... Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory ..."
You want explicit? I'd call those pretty explicit.
And you would be arguing something that the Bible doesn't say. By being called the "Son of God", he's God. It's why the Pharisees tried to stone him. Because he was calling himself God.
The Pharisees accused Jesus of many things but were they true? Didn't Jesus consider them as those religious leaders who misled the people?
That's why Jesus rebuts their accusation by saying the Son does not do a single thing of his own initiative. Thus he is not making himself equal to God.
"You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped."-Philippians 2:5,6
Paul tells Christians to have the same attitude as Christ. What attitude was that? So, was Christ seeking equality with God?
I do find it curious how many of the truly divisive Christian doctrines that are considered absolutely essential either (1) are found solely in the Gospel of John or the Book of Revelation and/or (2) have very thin biblical support and must be arrived at by "reading between the lines."
The Trinity is perhaps the prime example. The undeniable reality is, it isn't found unequivocally anywhere in the Bible. The reality is, Jesus did say many things suggesting he would have been aghast at being equated with the Father. I even find it curious how persistently Paul refers to "Our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity was bitterly debated, fought over and negotiated for many centuries - far beyond the Council of Nicea. As I said, for one brief period the official position reverted from Trinitarianism to Arianism. As one Bishop famously said, "We all became Arians overnight!"
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity - even if you accept it - is intellectually incomprehensible to the point of being unhelpful. The Father "begat" the Son and the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father (and the Son, if that's your theology), but there was never a moment when all three didn't exist and they all have the fullness of God. Got that?
I was quite astonished to hear a theologian of the stature of William Lane Craig say, in his 12-part Defenders series on the Trinity, that there was no Father-Son relationship before the Incarnation. The Person we call the Father could have incarnated, and then he would've been the Son and the Son would have been the Father, or perhaps the Spirit. Got that?
And yet, acceptance of the Trinity is essential. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe the Trinity - whatever "believing the Trinity" may mean. Those cursed Jehovah's Witnesses merely believe Jesus was the firstborn of God's creation - and we all know where they're going to spend eternity for this error alone.
I find it almost unbelievable that any essential core Christian doctrine would not have been clearly and unequivocally set forth in the NT - and the Trinity simply isn't.
I really do think "some misguided sense of obligation to defend the dogma you have been taught as a sign of your devotion and faith in God" just about says it insofar as the Trinity is concerned. "I have no idea what it's even supposed to mean, but by God I believe it because I'm a Christian and I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't at least say I believed it." Ergo, we have embarrassing pissing contests such as this thread, over and over.
One of the distressing things to me about much of Christianity is that the focus is so intensely on Jesus that the Father seems to have been lost. Some of the, er, devotion to Jesus is quite weird and almost sexual.
While I "accept" the Trinity as part of Christian orthodoxy, meaning that I at least don't actively reject it or disbelieve it, there is no way that I regard it as a Christian essential or think it adds much to the religion.
Lol, South Park, Cartman’s band, Faith, Plus One....
Don't talk to me about context. Psalm 82 is about the divine council and Jesus was quoting Psalm 82. The divine council refers to angelic beings - elohim. In Psalm 89 the divine council - the assembly of the holy ones is 'in the sky.'' Jewish judges were not in the heavens. God's divine council is in the heavens, not on earth. What Psalms 82 and 89 describe, as with Job 38:7, is a group of heavenly sons of God. Not Jewish leaders. Jesus did not call the Jewish leaders elohim. And yes, the word of God came to the divine council.
The English Standard Version correctly translates Psalm 82:1.
Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
if dead with Christ then risen with Christ, we sit in heavenly places mike.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is speaking of the elohim (Hebrew)theos (Greek equivalent of the Hebrew elohim) which both the Father and the son are part of.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with elohim/theos, and the Word was elohim/theos.
Now one cannot be WITH someone and yet be the same someone.
that is why it goes on to say
The same was in the beginning with God elohim/theos
It is speaking of both the Father and the son.
its the same with your Philippians scripture for if you would have read the rest of it you would have seen these scriptures.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Did Jesus highly exalt himself? No it was His Father who did and this becomes very clear when we read
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God/elohim/theos the Father.
Both the Father and the son are elohim, but they are distinct individuals and the Father outranks the son.
Which is made clear in the scripture you posted
although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped
Again, both John 1:1 compared with John 1:14, and Philippians 2:5-8 plainly state that Jesus is both God and man. Something you are trying desperately to deny.
And you understand nothing about the Trinitarian teaching. Of course Jesus is not the Father. But he is just as much God as the Father is. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another but they are united as one by means of their essence or attributes. They all mutually indwell or interpenatrate each other to the extent that though they are three distinct persons, they exist as one Being.
No, Scripture does not call us elohim. Jesus in John 10:34 quoted Psalm 82 which was referring to divine council members - angels, not men.
Take your own advice and check out what he said.
Well, Mike, it does refer to humans as elohim:
Tehillim - Psalms - Chapter 82
6 I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."
Rashi:
You are angelic creatures: Angels. When I gave you the Torah, I gave it to you on the condition that the Angel of Death should not rule over you.
However, elohim has wide applications...
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