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Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,694 posts, read 58,004,579 times
Reputation: 46171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
Wish I could rep again.
As usual...it's pretty obvious.. " If the trades are such great jobs, then why isn’t trade school more heavily promoted ?"
Most of us know why, and we'll do our part to improve that for future students, employers, and for the good of our country and EDU system.
Then there are the good-ole-boys, "this is how we've always done it and how it must always be." And they even think that has been successful. Yikes x2.
Fortunately, the world is larger than C-D edu contributors (?)
Solutions abound, ...elsewhere.
Did I ever say that there shouldn't be "trades" education in public schools.
If I did, please show me.
.
Seems pretty clear to me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
I don't really agree with you, from this standpoint:
I will presume that you agree that a full college degree (whether it be at the Bachelor's level, Master's level, or graduate level, is a higher level than a 1 or 2 year trade diploma.
So what should education aim for? I would say aim for the highest level of opportunity, while knowing that students may ultimately select a lower level (as many do). It's far more dangerous to aim for the bottom, thus restricting students from going higher.
Your enthusiasm for vo-tech shines through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Many public schools have 7 period days. Let's see -- math, science, social studies, English, and, presumably PE. That leaves 2 periods a day for electives, which could include trades-related courses, while still encouraging students to take higher level mathematcis. 7th grade through 12 grade -- that would be a dozen full-year trades-related courses they could take, or as many as 24 semester trades-related courses they could take. They don't have to choose electives like band, art, orchestra, chorus, drama, and so forth. More than a quarter of their time in middle and high schools could focus on trades-related courses.
So you schools could offer vo-tech, but how many do? Most people understand there is a difference between "offering" and promoting. "Offer" some vo-tech electives but "encourage" college prep track. Even offering random courses is still not having a career track in vo-tech.
And as for "electives" like band, art, chorus ..., all have some level of requirement before they become electives. Why not some level of basic shop? Shop provided some of the most important education I've used throughout my life, in college, in career, and in life. Much more so than most of the so called college prep courses I had. Just one very silly, simply little example -- shop taught me how to take measurements with tools such as calipers, micrometers, multimeters, as well as properly measure out materials and liquids. Those skills were all required in college science classes but were NOT taught in high school other than shop. My kids, years later, did not know how to use those instruments in college because they weren't taught in high school.
I consider skills like basic shop, basic home ec, so important to life, I'd be more than willing to drop a year of lit or art or music from high school to have a year of shop and home ec.
So you schools could offer vo-tech, but how many do? Most people understand there is a difference between "offering" and promoting. "Offer" some vo-tech electives but "encourage" college prep track. Even offering random courses is still not having a career track in vo-tech.
This.
Quote:
And as for "electives" like band, art, chorus ..., all have some level of requirement before they become electives. Why not some level of basic shop? Shop provided some of the most important education I've used throughout my life, in college, in career, and in life. Much more so than most of the so called college prep courses I had. Just one very silly, simply little example -- shop taught me how to take measurements with tools such as calipers, micrometers, multimeters, as well as properly measure out materials and liquids. Those skills were all required in college science classes but were NOT taught in high school other than shop. My kids, years later, did not know how to use those instruments in college because they weren't taught in high school.
I consider skills like basic shop, basic home ec, so important to life, I'd be more than willing to drop a year of lit or art or music from high school to have a year of shop and home ec.
And all this.
And kids don't get nearly enough practice in the basic math that they're really likely to use. Everyone needs another course each of practical algebra and plane geometry.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,694 posts, read 58,004,579 times
Reputation: 46171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
...
And kids don't get nearly enough practice in the basic math that they're really likely to use. Everyone needs another course each of practical algebra and plane geometry.
Practical experience (which can be gained in vo-tech courses) goes a long way to growing inquisitiveness and life-long skills. Our local skills center offers HS kids just such experiences. They can merge those classes with college bound, or they can take an intensive Vo-tech program (or (3) different vo-tech programs, at once). It's a very popular and worthwhile additional choice. They added aeronautics design maint and pilot training, several years ago, which offers exposure and jump start to careers in that growing field (which requires advanced practical math)
My kids got an adequate dose of math during Jr Hi, having to figure out the framing when cutting complex angles to build their own house. Some of the Mech eng college grads I interview can't do the same.
Getting your kids involved in actually building and inventing useful products and solutions is a good way to recognize their strengths, which grows their confidence and ultimately their success.
One of our favorite annual events is attending the woodworking display of our state's HS programs. A remote mtn community always has impressive entries, including entire bedroom sets. Many treasured memories talking with the students about how they designed and built. Some went to the forest and cut and milled their own lumber. Even growing the trees on their family ranch for decades. (Maybe their grandfather planted the tree, or they salvaged from a neighbor after a storm toppled the tree).
I have a niece who, after 10 years and many thousands of dollars, finally got a bachelors's degree in "General Studies."
Nobody can tell me that wasn't a cynical money grab on the part of the university.
This is absurd. If your niece spent $5k on a designer handbag, would you blame the retailer/luxury handbag market? How is what she spent, in the pursuit of a degree she chose, a ‘money grab’ on the part of the university?
So you schools could offer vo-tech, but how many do? Most people understand there is a difference between "offering" and promoting. "Offer" some vo-tech electives but "encourage" college prep track. Even offering random courses is still not having a career track in vo-tech.
And as for "electives" like band, art, chorus ..., all have some level of requirement before they become electives. Why not some level of basic shop? Shop provided some of the most important education I've used throughout my life, in college, in career, and in life. Much more so than most of the so called college prep courses I had. Just one very silly, simply little example -- shop taught me how to take measurements with tools such as calipers, micrometers, multimeters, as well as properly measure out materials and liquids. Those skills were all required in college science classes but were NOT taught in high school other than shop. My kids, years later, did not know how to use those instruments in college because they weren't taught in high school.
I consider skills like basic shop, basic home ec, so important to life, I'd be more than willing to drop a year of lit or art or music from high school to have a year of shop and home ec.
We didn't promote any kind of course work. We presented our course offerings online and in newsletters. We didn't push a thing. Parents pushed. We didn't. Each spring we would have an "electives fair". Each electives teacher would write a 1 paragraph blurb about their program. All the blurbs were printed in a handout, just as given to us. Then we'd attach a map, and in front of each elective's classroom door there would be a sign. Parents and kids decided which rooms to enter. No one forced them into any particular classrooms. Then, later in the spring, parents and kids signed up for electives on a form -- with the same blurbs written by the electives teachers -- sent home. No one pushed anything.
As a middle school we had 2 levels of shop. 2 levels of home ec (although it was called teen living). Any kid could take 2 semesters of shop, and our enrollment stayed relatively stable over my 20 years in the school, requiring 2 full time teachers. The course did evolve. For example, the program stopped having lathes in favor of some robotics. Home ec was a different story. A program that didn't keep up with the times. When I first went to the school we had 2 full time home ec teachers and a part time home ec teacher, and 3 full classrooms and a 'home ec living room'. Enrollment dwindled over 20 years to the point where we had one half-time teacher. Do you know why? They didn't do a thing to modernize the course much from when I was a kid in high school in the mid-1960s. I wish I knew how to sew on a button, but I'm not sure we have to have a course to teach that and similar skills. In the 2020s, how many people make a pillow case? How many people bake a cake from scratch? One day when the home ec teacher asked why her enrollment was dropping, I told her that her program was stuck in the 1960s. "Oh no! We have microwave overs now!" We need a course to teach how to use a microwave?
Drop a year of music and art? They are ELECTIVES....just as shop and home ec are ELECTIVES.
This is absurd. If your niece spent $5k on a designer handbag, would you blame the retailer/luxury handbag market? How is what she spent, in the pursuit of a degree she chose, a ‘money grab’ on the part of the university?
The manufacturers of luxury handbags make no bones of the fact that they are luxury products. They don't market their handbags as necessities to have a basic middle class life. They never said you'd be limited to working at McDonalds if you don't have a Gucci purse. And if confronted, I'd bet they would say, "If you have to take out a loan to buy our purse, you can't afford it."
We didn't promote any kind of course work. We presented our course offerings online and in newsletters. We didn't push a thing. Parents pushed. We didn't. Each spring we would have an "electives fair". Each electives teacher would write a 1 paragraph blurb about their program. All the blurbs were printed in a handout, just as given to us. Then we'd attach a map, and in front of each elective's classroom door there would be a sign. Parents and kids decided which rooms to enter. No one forced them into any particular classrooms. Then, later in the spring, parents and kids signed up for electives on a form -- with the same blurbs written by the electives teachers -- sent home. No one pushed anything.
As a middle school we had 2 levels of shop. 2 levels of home ec (although it was called teen living). Any kid could take 2 semesters of shop, and our enrollment stayed relatively stable over my 20 years in the school, requiring 2 full time teachers. The course did evolve. For example, the program stopped having lathes in favor of some robotics. Home ec was a different story. A program that didn't keep up with the times. When I first went to the school we had 2 full time home ec teachers and a part time home ec teacher, and 3 full classrooms and a 'home ec living room'. Enrollment dwindled over 20 years to the point where we had one half-time teacher. Do you know why? They didn't do a thing to modernize the course much from when I was a kid in high school in the mid-1960s. I wish I knew how to sew on a button, but I'm not sure we have to have a course to teach that and similar skills. In the 2020s, how many people make a pillow case? How many people bake a cake from scratch? One day when the home ec teacher asked why her enrollment was dropping, I told her that her program was stuck in the 1960s. "Oh no! We have microwave overs now!" We need a course to teach how to use a microwave?
Drop a year of music and art? They are ELECTIVES....just as shop and home ec are ELECTIVES.
It's wonderful that your school does everything right. Not all, perhaps most schools don't provide those options. Electives are only electives if you have a choice between them. Like middle schools around here -- most of those aren't offered at all. Art is required. And the only thing elective about music or band is which one the kid picks, but chorus or band is mandatory. For all three years of middle school.
It's wonderful that your school does everything right. Not all, perhaps most schools don't provide those options. Electives are only electives if you have a choice between them. Like middle schools around here -- most of those aren't offered at all. Art is required. And the only thing elective about music or band is which one the kid picks, but chorus or band is mandatory. For all three years of middle school.
Our school system was quite responsive to parent desires in terms of courses offered. Part of that was due to being a county that had a rather wide variance between blue collar and white collar, rich and poor, diversity in many aspects (inlcuding, but not limited to race). 66% of our school systems students did pursue 4 year degrees, but, of course, that meant that 34% did not.
The manufacturers of luxury handbags make no bones of the fact that they are luxury products. They don't market their handbags as necessities to have a basic middle class life. They never said you'd be limited to working at McDonalds if you don't have a Gucci purse. And if confronted, I'd bet they would say, "If you have to take out a loan to buy our purse, you can't afford it."
The point re: personal choice flew right over your head. If you’re content with trade school, relative to the thread, who is telling you to do otherwise? That said, why must it be promoted (or college discouraged) to fit your personal preference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
I have a niece who, after 10 years and many thousands of dollars, finally got a bachelors's degree in "General Studies."
Nobody can tell me that wasn't a cynical money grab on the part of the university.
Again, how is what your niece spent, in the pursuit of a degree she chose, a ‘money grab’ on the part of the university? Did someone force her to do such?
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. Yikes x2. 
