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I agree and it's not only a case for you, but overwhelming majority of the Westerners.
And that's why none of those videos were ever translated for the Western public or even shown for it.
And since people never saw it/were not familiar with it, such thing as Ukrainian Nazi doesn't exist. Must be "Russian propaganda" then, as the media says.
So I am trying to translate/present here with what I observed as much as I can.
Because obviously, I base my conclusions on something that I can see with my own eyes and I don't need translation.
Just read the Wiki article and compare it with your own reality. If you know any better independent sources let us know.
And stop posting YouTube videos which cannot be confirmed.
Because you took the time to write this, I'll read it. Per my last comment, issues pertinent for pre-invaded Ukraine (the original OP) are now largely irrelevant post- invasion. NOTHING here 'justifies' one country violating the sovereignty of another (a key civilizational concept). Certainly not the increasing distress, destruction, and death - to Ukrainians whatever the language they speak.
Sure history matters, but there comes a point where talking about it as if there's a potentially viable excuse becomes problematic given that people are dying. That said, when something like this happens its hard not to ask: WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS PUTIN THINKING? From what I can tell, the Russian public may have been conditioned to accept this, although obviously not all do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
AND it's a case for the post-Maidan ( post-2014) Ukraine.
This was only the response for UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM, pushed from new puppet government in Kiev onto the South-East of Ukraine. Prohibition of the Russian language was the FIRST law issued by the new government in Kiev.
1. But it has a very negative connotation in Russian language/culture, precisely because of the association with the German Nationalism of the WWII.
The positive connotation has definition of "patriotism."
2. Donbass itself was very international, accepting place. It used to have "Soviet" feel if anything, back in 2014, before it was attacked by the Ukrainian nationalists.
Of course he wanted Ukraine back into Russia's orbit.
Why wouldn't he?
After all, that's what at least South-Eastern part of Ukraine always was for the last 30 years.
No and no and no as rationalizations for an invasion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Not initially so ( he thought that after taking over Crimea, the rest didn't really matter and the situation would have "taken care of itself," with South-East part of Ukraine defending its pro-Russian values, its historic ties with Russia, and that Ukraine's economic problems would force Americans drop Ukraine with time. But he was warned by a Russian military commander ( hired privately, not by Kremlin,) to organize the militia in Donbass that no, it's not going to be the case, that Ukrainian Nationalists are a grave danger, and America, after investing so much money for change of government is not going to drop Ukraine.
He said that the best time to take over Ukraine was NOW, ( post-Maidan 2014,) when South-East was asking for help and Ukrainian military commandment was willing to take oath to Russia in the Eastern part of the country, pretty much as it was in Crimea.
But Putin refused to bring the troops in.
Why - that's the whole different story.
Seven years fast forward, he realized the mistake he made back then, because everything that that commander was warning him about, turned out to be true.
You know, I've always thought the relatively uninformed who propose what amounts to a conspiracy theory of sorts rather silly. So much is multi-factorial. Developing even a superficial understanding takes enormous effort. That said, I'll do it:
Listening to Putin, learning that for the last several years he apparently had the Russian news hyper focus on Ukraine, that by not acting in 2014 he apparently surprised Russian separatists to where they felt betrayed ... it is hard not to wonder whether he created then left the Donbass as a festering sore.
Because Putin the tactician all along wanted Ukraine back in the Russian orbit no doubt due to complex motives and outright emotional frustration??? He is an angry man. Ukraine is in ideological error straying from his concept of Russian heritage. Repairing the so-called mistakes of the past can be extremely compelling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Ukraine grew into very dangerous entity for Russia, with Nationalism taking over/subjugating South-Eastern areas, and having the steady supply of NATO's instructors/weaponry.
So Putin HAD to act ( once NATO/US told him "we don't give a damn about your concerns - our project "Ukraine as anti-Russia" is progressing successfully, exactly as we planned, so shut up and do what we are telling you to do.")
To finish up the Putin "story" (per the Feb. 21st speech) ... this is worth a comment. In our current world order unwarranted aggression from another country does translate into needing a response. A couple of weeks back I read some of the relevant analysis ... Mearsheimer, Jack Matlock and a couple of others counseling against foreign policy that did not fully take into account Russian interests.
That NATO would ever invade Russia seems preposterous. Still it is what Russia thinks that's relevant. Wanting a strategic neutral border zone is not unreasonable.
However, Mearsheimer also maintained (2014) Putin would never be foolish enough to invade Ukraine, stating he could accomplish his goals by other means. That Putin was too shrewd to take that step.
His take was an invasion remained unlikely due to the enormous economic ramifications for Russia ... the difficulty in occupying Ukraine. More, Putin did not NEED to invade. Putting troops on the border is enough of a demonstration to make it "impossible" that Ukraine would ever become part of NATO. A "smart" Putin will "sit back and continue to pull the levers as he's been doing."
There's no other conclusion. Putin did this because HE wanted to. That speech, the emotion and intense frustration - this comes from him. He gambled for a lot of wrong reasons and lost putting Russia and the world into a major international crisis and tearing a country apart along the way. The man outsmarted himself. He is dangerous because someone who attempted to "fix" history failed making him increasingly unpredictable.
The Mearsheimers and Kissingers and the like no longer "understand" him.
EDITED TO ADD: Here's the Putin speech that uses subtitles so he can be heard in Russian. The version with the English voiceover is terrible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APPjVlUA-gs
Last edited by EveryLady; 03-06-2022 at 09:43 AM..
Just read the Wiki article and compare it with your own reality. If you know any better independent sources let us know.
And stop posting YouTube videos which cannot be confirmed.
I did read the article Geggo. Even Wiki says the anti-Maidan protestors were held as political prisoners and went on food strike while the arsonists walked free.
These groups are openly Nazis. And the government in Kiev arms them and gives them political legitimacy. The state builds statues to venerate Bandera and other Nazi collaborators and gives them holidays. They set up hard-right child soldier camps reminiscent to Hitler youth camps
German aid trickles down to these groups. As a German citizen, how does it make you feel to know your government is once against arming Nazis in Ukraine? Does it make your blood boil, does it make you physically ill? Does it make you want to burn your own flag and scream down your neighbors who normalize this behavior?
I did read the article Geggo. Even Wiki says the anti-Maidan protestors were held as political prisoners and went on food strike while the arsonists walked free.
These groups are openly Nazis. And the government in Kiev arms them and gives them political legitimacy. The state builds statues to venerate Bandera and other Nazi collaborators and gives them holidays. They set up hard-right child soldier camps reminiscent to Hitler youth camps
German aid trickles down to these groups. As a German citizen, how does it make you feel to know your government is once against arming Nazis in Ukraine? Does it make your blood boil, does it make you physically ill? Does it make you want to burn your own flag and scream down your neighbors who normalize this behavior?
Russia has invaded a foreign country, bombed hospitals and schools, shot children dead and raped the women, I think you'll find that the world is 'physically sickened' by Putin and his cronies.
Looks like Finland is not keen to be the victim of the next Russian "special military operation" - "Finland to purchase Israeli air defense systems due to Russian threat"
Russia has invaded a foreign country, bombed hospitals and schools, shot children dead and raped the women, I think you'll find that the world is 'physically sickened' by Putin and his cronies.
Russian child killers.
Again, when you call for an insurgency this is what happens. Russia was targeting military installations, but then NATO/Zelensky told the people to sacrifice themselves and become insurgents.
When civilians start taking up arms, civilians die. And for what? A lie about an unwinnable war? NATO uses the Ukrainians as cannon fodder.
Just read the Wiki article and compare it with your own reality. If you know any better independent sources let us know.
And stop posting YouTube videos which cannot be confirmed.
Why should I read the wiki article, it is unclear who wrote it.When I saw it live broadcast over the Internet .
I don't think I should forget what I personally saw in favor of the wiki article.
Again, when you call for an insurgency this is what happens. Russia was targeting military installations, but then NATO/Zelensky told the people to sacrifice themselves and become insurgents.
When civilians start taking up arms, civilians die. And for what? A lie about an unwinnable war? NATO uses the Ukrainians as cannon fodder.
Russian shouldn't be 'targeting' anything!! Its NOT their country! If Putin wants to destroy cities and kill innocent men, women and CHILDREN then I suggest he does it in his own country!! See how you like it then Winterfall eh!? I reckon you'd soon change your tune!
I did read the article Geggo. Even Wiki says the anti-Maidan protestors were held as political prisoners and went on food strike while the arsonists walked free.
These groups are openly Nazis. And the government in Kiev arms them and gives them political legitimacy. The state builds statues to venerate Bandera and other Nazi collaborators and gives them holidays. They set up hard-right child soldier camps reminiscent to Hitler youth camps
German aid trickles down to these groups. As a German citizen, how does it make you feel to know your government is once against arming Nazis in Ukraine? Does it make your blood boil, does it make you physically ill? Does it make you want to burn your own flag and scream down your neighbors who normalize this behavior?
What a russian nazi drivel. Nazis are you, from the Bunker Vlad all way to the street bums cheering war and murder of Ukrainians to put them in their place.
The war of aggression is a crime, USSR avoided Nuremberg I for its war crimes, aggressive wars and collaboration with German nazis, but there is a good chance Bunker Vlad and his minions will be tried by Nuremberg II. Putin is like an untouchable leper already. Crazed up rank &file Russians fully share his nazi views and they support aggressive wars and murder of lesser people in the name of Russian Reich. De-nazification of Russia is a must.
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I reckon you'd soon change your tune!
