Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Mastercard, Visa halt all Russian operations: Two of the largest operators of payment cards announced Saturday they are halting transactions in Russia. Visa and Mastercard said they will boot any cards issued by Russian banks off their networks and not allow their cards issued outside of Russia to work with Russian vendors or ATMs...
'We are compelled to act following Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, and the unacceptable events that we have witnessed', Visa Inc. Chairman and CEO Al Kelly said in a statement. 'We regret the impact this will have on our valued colleagues, and on the clients, partners, merchants and cardholders we serve in Russia. This war and the ongoing threat to peace and stability demand we respond in line with our values'."
I think it is hilarious that even the Russian government are backpeddling on the "nazi" accusations.
Instead it is 'nationalists'.
Some of our brain washed users here at CD have completely adopted that change of rhetoric as well.
I think Ukraine now called nato useless. Or to be precise in the words of their president: "every person that dies from now on is your fault". Yet America somehow managed to twist this to "Only we can defeat Russia". Things are going according to plan though, Russia will be stopped in eastern europe and it will be without America's help - I'm curious how will nato's negotiations look after this war...it will be awkward.
Posting Russian and Ukrainian YouTube videos isn’t useful for people like me who don’t speak the languages.
I agree and it's not only a case for you, but overwhelming majority of the Westerners.
And that's why none of those videos were ever translated for the Western public or even shown for it.
And since people never saw it/were not familiar with it, such thing as Ukrainian Nazi doesn't exist. Must be "Russian propaganda" then, as the media says.
So I am trying to translate/present here with what I observed as much as I can.
Because obviously, I base my conclusions on something that I can see with my own eyes and I don't need translation.
Jimmy Dore is NOT a journalist. He totally lost me when he pulled a stunt that Sean Hannity does: inserted his own commentary into an interview. Dore in an aside charged that Ukrainian Nationalists of this ilk (the three being interviewed) started the shooting at Maidan. Don't want to stray here but Jimmy Dore wasn't there.
What do I care - the main point here is that he finally brings the translation of what the nationalists are saying themselves.
And the bottom line of what they are saying is this;
"Now the West is saying something like "There were not too many Nationalists, they had only that much influence...
Influence? If not for nationalists, that whole thing would have turned into a gay parade.
We now been given so much weaponry, not because as some say "West is helping us" but because we perform the tasks set by the West. Because we are the only ones who are ready to do them. Because we have fun killing and we have fun fighting...
We are the flagman here because we have started a war that has not been seen for 60 years.
So imagine how many weapons we have, how many veterans we have."
Quote:
Now I only listened to the first 6.5 minutes and can't comment on the remainder. Still what I was hearing was three neo-Nazi wannabe's bragging how influential they were even though numerically very small. Tough guys brag, yes. I heard nothing substantive.
Of course *hearing* what the leaders of the Nazi gangs are saying during their get-together is not "substantive."
But SEEING IT ( along with "hearing") completes the picture. Because that's them in action - deciding the outcome of the "peaceful Maidan". Precisely as they stated.
The bragging highlighted that even though they were so small in number ... the large crowds were so peaceful, they said, they were like - then a slur for gays.
No one denies that Nazi wannabes are about and that they have stirred up trouble. But the endless thousands that stood in the cold for weeks had a grievance. Just like the ethnic Russians of Donbass and elsewhere had a grievance at the end result.
I doubt there are any real Russians on here, Russia is being cut off from the rest of the world (just like the good old days when people in the East used to risk their lives getting to the West), I imagine all these posters (even ones pretending NOT to be Russian) are Russian 'bots':-
The funny (or sad) part is that Putin seems to be the primary nationalist.
Years ago there was this long thread on the differences between Fascism and Communism. Posters would write pages.
Both, of course, were authoritarian but Fascism was associated with nationalism - the emphasis on nationhood with, in the case of Nazi Germany, it expressed as ethnic nationalism constructed around one culture, language, or ethnicity. That was not the case for the USSR, although Stalin abandoned the Leninst tactic of providing autonomy to various republics containing minorities as he "Russified" the USSR.
AND it's a case for the post-Maidan ( post-2014) Ukraine.
Quote:
Still, today Russia proper includes many minorities. But that is irrelevant to the Putin attempt to reconstitute "mother Russia" with Ukraine a key component. Encouraging the Russian separatist movement in Donbass was nothing but nationalism - and ethnic nationalism at that.
This was only the response for UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM, pushed from new puppet government in Kiev onto the South-East of Ukraine. Prohibition of the Russian language was the FIRST law issued by the new government in Kiev.
Quote:
Nationalism doesn't have to be negative, it's all in the application. Putin's was the worst form: focusing on ethnic nationalism for Russians in Donbass then making that the highest value achieved at any price, including the loss of human life from this insane invasion. That's the N word, even though I highly doubt Putin has any swastika tattoos.
1. But it has a very negative connotation in Russian language/culture, precisely because of the association with the German Nationalism of the WWII.
The positive connotation has definition of "patriotism."
2. Donbass itself was very international, accepting place. It used to have "Soviet" feel if anything, back in 2014, before it was attacked by the Ukrainian nationalists.
Quote:
It would not surprise me if the Donbass situation was only an excuse for what Putin really wanted - Ukraine (except perhaps for some pesky W. Ukrainians on former Polish land) back into Russia orbit.
Of course he wanted Ukraine back into Russia's orbit.
Why wouldn't he?
After all, that's what at least South-Eastern part of Ukraine always was for the last 30 years.
Quote:
(For the record, I don't think this really had much to do with NATO or even the West
Not initially so ( he thought that after taking over Crimea, the rest didn't really matter and the situation would have "taken care of itself," with South-East part of Ukraine defending its pro-Russian values, its historic ties with Russia, and that Ukraine's economic problems would force Americans drop Ukraine with time. But he was warned by a Russian military commander ( hired privately, not by Kremlin,) to organize the militia in Donbass that no, it's not going to be the case, that Ukrainian Nationalists are a grave danger, and America, after investing so much money for change of government is not going to drop Ukraine.
He said that the best time to take over Ukraine was NOW, ( post-Maidan 2014,) when South-East was asking for help and Ukrainian military commandment was willing to take oath to Russia in the Eastern part of the country, pretty much as it was in Crimea.
But Putin refused to bring the troops in.
Why - that's the whole different story.
Seven years fast forward, he realized the mistake he made back then, because everything that that commander was warning him about, turned out to be true.
Ukraine grew into very dangerous entity for Russia, with Nationalism taking over/subjugating South-Eastern areas, and having the steady supply of NATO's instructors/weaponry.
So Putin HAD to act ( once NATO/US told him "we don't give a damn about your concerns - our project "Ukraine as anti-Russia" is progressing successfully, exactly as we planned, so shut up and do what we are telling you to do.")
What do I care - the main point here is that he finally brings the translation of what the nationalists are saying themselves.
And the bottom line of what they are saying is this;
"Now the West is saying something like "There were not too many Nationalists, they had only that much influence...
Influence? If not for nationalists, that whole thing would have turned into a gay parade.
We now been given so much weaponry, not because as some say "West is helping us" but because we perform the tasks set by the West. Because we are the only ones who are ready to do them. Because we have fun killing and we have fun fighting...
We are the flagman here because we have started a war that has not been seen for 60 years.
So imagine how many weapons we have, how many veterans we have."
Of course *hearing* what the leaders of the Nazi gangs are saying during their get-together is not enough.
But SEEING IT ( along with "hearing") completes the picture. Because that's them in action - deciding the outcome of the "peaceful Maidan". Precisely as they claim.
I never said that I disbelieved them. Only that they were bragging about their activities but that I never heard anything "substantive."
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
What grievance exactly?
So what would be "substantive"? Then per your question, what "grievance exactly"?
Look, this is a thread on the future of Ukraine and much of what's been discussed here for years on Ukrainian oligarchs and Western involvement and the Donbass separatist movement etc. was highly relevant to the thread. But something changed on February 24th that will profoundly alter the future of Ukraine. Putin invaded.
Why, really, is what happened during the Maidan in 2014 - and what these thugs say - really any of Putin's business? Or NOW relevant to the thread topic?
Putin was not the President of Ukraine. Putin was the President of Russia. A different country. Yanukovych was the man in charge when a relatively small number of Neo-Nazis committed mayhem on the streets. Nothing they did or said was "substantive" to an invasion by a foreign country several years later. Even if Putin thinks so.
I just finished plowing thru his Feb. 21st address (almost, a few minutes to go). He is far far more concerned about Western Ukraine than he was about the Donbass that contained some Russians with dual citizenship. That barely got a mention.
This is the OP: So I'm looking at videos of Kiev burning and 19 are dead so far, and there seems to be some very serious turmoil going on there. Backlash against political leaders siding with Putin over the EU and probably many other things that run deeper than the headlines are showing. Citizens in the streets of Kiev seem desperate at the point that they feel they have nothing left to loose after having protesting rights lost, and perhaps a much tighter grip with what seems to be heading towards totalitarian ways. All the while, turn the corner and the Sochi Olympic games are currently on the world stage. The Ukraine has a whole new generation of post Soviet/iron curtain college age kids growing into adulthood. What direction is the Ukraine heading in?
There's your answer. That's what the citizens were protesting. We now know Ukraine was heading in the direction of being invaded by the foreign country next door.
Maybe it's time to close this thread called The Future of Ukraine. Open another entitled: Ukraine under Putin? The future of Ukraine is that Putin will soon control it - to the extent a military occupation can - so finally will have a say. Because as far as the world is concerned, he's the man with the nukes.
I never said that I disbelieved them. Only that they were bragging about their activities but that I never heard anything "substantive."
What would you consider "substantive" in his speech?
Quote:
So what would be "substantive"? Then per your question, what "grievance exactly"?
Yes, that's my question - what exactly was their "grievance" that you mentioned?
Are you aware of it?
Because this is an interesting/important question to concentrate on.
Quote:
Look, this is a thread on the future of Ukraine and much of what's been discussed here for years on Ukrainian oligarchs and Western involvement and the Donbass separatist movement etc. was highly relevant to the thread. But something changed on February 24th that will profoundly alter the future of Ukraine. Putin invaded.
We know that he is set to remove the Nationalists out of the picture.
I don't have an idea what else is coming.
Do you?
Quote:
Why, really, is what happened during the Maidan in 2014 - and what these thugs say - really any of Putin's business? Or NOW relevant to the thread topic?
It's the utmost important, direct connection.
Because these thugs run the country behind the scene.
And the West is backing these thugs and supplies them with weapons.
Let me quote it again;
"We now been given so much weaponry, not because as some say "West is helping us" but because we perform the tasks set by the West. Because we are the only ones who are ready to do them. Because we have fun killing and we have fun fighting...
We are the flagman here because we have started a war that has not been seen for 60 years"
Pay attention at the last line in particular.
They are the ones that started the war that hasn't been seen for 60 years ( them, not Putin.)
Putin only finally reacted to what he saw was developing on his border, this growing "Ukraine as anti-Russia" project.
Quote:
Putin was not the President of Ukraine. Putin was the President of Russia. A different country.
Correct again.
So as the president of Russia, he saw the growing danger with the West prompting Ukraine to become a threat for Russia, so he reacted. First - with the help of diplomacy, and when THIS didn't work, he proceeded with the next logical step.
Quote:
Yanukovych was the man in charge when a relatively small number of Neo-Nazis committed mayhem on the streets. Nothing they did or said was "substantive" to an invasion by a foreign country several years later. Even if Putin thinks so.
Everything they said ( and did) within the last seven years brought his invasion as the result of it.
That's exactly what happened here.
Quote:
I just finished plowing thru his Feb. 21st address (almost, a few minutes to go). He is far far more concerned about Western Ukraine than he was about the Donbass that contained some Russians with dual citizenship. That barely got a mention.
Not sure about his speech, but Western Ukraine is where the Nationalism came from.
Quote:
This is the OP: So I'm looking at videos of Kiev burning and 19 are dead so far, and there seems to be some very serious turmoil going on there. Backlash against political leaders siding with Putin over the EU
This must be the politicians from the "Opposition block" ( second most popular party after Zelensky's party.) One of their leaders is arrested, another one was recently attacked, yes.
These people think that Ukraine would fair better economically while supporting ties with Russia as it used to be.
They have their own valid point ( which many support,) but all the TV stations that were promoting this point of view were shut down couple of months ago by Zelensky.
One and only point of view was allowed in Ukraine by that point. The one promoted by the Nationalists.
Quote:
and probably many other things that run deeper than the headlines are showing. Citizens in the streets of Kiev seem desperate at the point that they feel they have nothing left to loose after having protesting rights lost, and perhaps a much tighter grip with what seems to be heading towards totalitarian ways. All the while, turn the corner and the Sochi Olympic games are currently on the world stage. The Ukraine has a whole new generation of post Soviet/iron curtain college age kids growing into adulthood. What direction is the Ukraine heading in?
What is has got to do with "Soviet/Iron curtain" thing?
Russia had the whole new generation of "college age kids" raised on corporate ideas, lattes and capuccino, "how to get rich" and the rest.
So what seems to be a problem, while lamenting over the destiny of the Ukrainian "college age kids?"
Quote:
There's your answer. That's what the citizens were protesting. We now know Ukraine was heading in the direction of being invaded by the foreign country next door.
I don't see the answer.
So I am asking again - what exactly the citizens were protesting back in 2014?
Quote:
Maybe it's time to close this thread called The Future of Ukraine. Open another entitled: Ukraine under Putin? The future of Ukraine is that Putin will soon control it - to the extent a military occupation can - so finally will have a say. Because as far as the world is concerned, he's the man with the nukes.
Even if Ukraine is going to be "under Putin," it's still her future, which is still very questionable at this point.
Last edited by erasure; 03-05-2022 at 10:25 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
