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Old 08-27-2022, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
906 posts, read 429,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Maybe they just want to put it behind them. It was a painful period, especially under Stalin. Most people in any part of the world try to avoid reliving their traumas, collective or individual. Besides, you've pretty much got two new generations that have come of age since all of that happened. Two whole new generations; that's a lot of people who never experienced the Soviet regime, or were too young to be aware of it, or were born during the Gorby "kinder gentler communism" phase. The older cohort is in their 40's already. Time is marching on, as time always does.


And bear in mind, that for many, the difficult times were actually in the 90's, when the economy was in a state of collapse. It was like the US Great Depression at the time. People who had lived in the 70's and 80's remember those decades as the era of stability, for the most part. Life was better then from a material standpoint. I realize that's counter-intuitive to how Westerners imagine life in Russia was, but very few Westerners ever lived there to experience it, so they have no idea.

I find this especially weird because while there is a good bit of later Kádár era nostalgia in Hungary as well , nobody ( but perhaps the most extreme tankie type Communists who make up maybe 1% of Hungarians ) excuses or denies the crimes of the pre 1963 Hungarian People's Republic , while in Russia it seems the exact opposite for many .

Longing for a less stressful time than the nineties gangster capitalist era and/or even rejecting capitalism itself , is quite different to denying or downplaying the fact that ( quite possibly ) many of your immediate ancestors were butchered by the very regime you look on with a sort of fuzzy feeling .
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Old 08-28-2022, 11:27 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
I find this especially weird because while there is a good bit of later Kádár era nostalgia in Hungary as well , nobody ( but perhaps the most extreme tankie type Communists who make up maybe 1% of Hungarians ) excuses or denies the crimes of the pre 1963 Hungarian People's Republic , while in Russia it seems the exact opposite for many .

Longing for a less stressful time than the nineties gangster capitalist era and/or even rejecting capitalism itself , is quite different to denying or downplaying the fact that ( quite possibly ) many of your immediate ancestors were butchered by the very regime you look on with a sort of fuzzy feeling .
My point is not about nostalgia for communism per se. I'm not talking about those old-guard elders who still vote the communist ticket, and all that. It's about nostalgia for an era of stability and relative prosperity (very relative, compared to the West, which is one reason Westerners don't understand it).

Not sure what you're referring to exactly, by the word "butchered". Even under Stalin, there weren't mass cases of people being shot, AFAIK. People were "sent away". Some survived (the cold, the hard labor, the meager food rations), some didn't. Others were simply sent into internal exile, which wasn't a big deal for some of them, depending on the location. People old enough to remember, do remember, but life has moved on. And Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalin helped clear the air and provide some closure.

They do live better lives now, in the 2000's. The unimaginable happened: the system crashed, eventually (after a very painful transition) leading to better times, greater freedoms, renewed stability, until a few months ago. All that has had a much more immediate impact on their lives and consciousness.

Maybe the system crashing gave some people a sense of vindication. The extremes of the past suddenly were dead and buried, and acknowledged to be extremes by most.

Also, the time of stability I refer to is post-Stalin. That's what people look on as better times, compared to the 90's. The 30's and 40's were the inter-war and WWII periods, still challenging times, economically speaking. In the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the standard of living improved. People could save up to buy a car. Trends from the West started to penetrate the Curtain, and some teenagers somehow had money to buy jeans or buy smuggled Beatles records, or tapes of Beatles records. There were modest means to indulge in a bit of consumerism, which doesn't sound like much to you, but it was significant to those who could manage it after a couple of generations of deprivation and struggle.

Westerners take so much for granted, that they have trouble understanding the impact, that very gradual improvements in quality of life had on the population. Small improvements meant a lot.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 08-28-2022 at 11:58 AM..
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Old 08-28-2022, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
906 posts, read 429,820 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
My point is not about nostalgia for communism per se. I'm not talking about those old-guard elders who still vote the communist ticket, and all that. It's about nostalgia for an era of stability and relative prosperity (very relative, compared to the West, which is one reason Westerners don't understand it).

Not sure what you're referring to exactly, by the word "butchered". Even under Stalin, there weren't mass cases of people being shot, AFAIK. People were "sent away". Some survived (the cold, the hard labor, the meager food rations), some didn't. Others were simply sent into internal exile, which wasn't a big deal for some of them, depending on the location. People old enough to remember, do remember, but life has moved on. And Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalin helped clear the air and provide some closure.

They do live better lives now, in the 2000's. The unimaginable happened: the system crashed, eventually (after a very painful transition) leading to better times, greater freedoms, renewed stability, until a few months ago. All that has had a much more immediate impact on their lives and consciousness.

Maybe the system crashing gave some people a sense of vindication. The extremes of the past suddenly were dead and buried, and acknowledged to be extremes by most.

Also, the time of stability I refer to is post-Stalin. That's what people look on as better times, compared to the 90's. The 30's and 40's were the inter-war and WWII periods, still challenging times, economically speaking. In the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the standard of living improved. People could save up to buy a car. Trends from the West started to penetrate the Curtain, and some teenagers somehow had money to buy jeans or buy smuggled Beatles records, or tapes of Beatles records. There were modest means to indulge in a bit of consumerism, which doesn't sound like much to you, but it was significant to those who could manage it after a couple of generations of deprivation and struggle.

Westerners take so much for granted, that they have trouble understanding the impact, that very gradual improvements in quality of life had on the population. Small improvements meant a lot.
AFAIK there actually were plenty of cases involving people being shot en masse during Stalin's time , not to mention the fact that killing people slowly ( via the means you've alluded to ) definitely qualifies as butchery by any reasonable standard IMO .

And while I'm aware of those other factors you've referenced , it still doesn't logically follow why that would lead anyone to praise such a red handed tyrant or even downplay said tyrant's crimes .


In short I really can't fathom why certain Russians still wear Stalin T shirts , when they should surely be aware of the fact that it was precisely that fellow who caused the deaths of millions of their compatriots in the past .

Last edited by William Blakeley; 08-28-2022 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 08-28-2022, 12:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
AFAIK there actually were plenty of cases involving people being shot en masse during Stalin's time , not to mention the fact that killing people slowly ( via the means you've alluded to ) definitely qualifies as butchery by any reasonable standard IMO .

And while I'm aware of those other factors you've referenced , it still doesn't logically follow why that would lead anyone to praise such a red handed tyrant or even downplay said tyrant's crimes .


In short I really can't fathom why certain Russians still wear Stalin T shirts , when they should surely be aware of the fact that it was precisely that fellow who caused the deaths of millions of their compatriots in the past .
There are Stalin T-shirts? I wasn't aware of that. Who's wearing them, what age group? I thought that generation had almost all passed away. Who's praising Stalin?
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Old 08-28-2022, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
906 posts, read 429,820 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
There are Stalin T-shirts? I wasn't aware of that. Who's wearing them, what age group? I thought that generation had almost all passed away. Who's praising Stalin?


I'm regrettably having a hard time finding any good links offhand , but any perusal of ( say ) a video of a National Bolshevik demonstration will probably feature several people wearing such T shirts , though the Nazbols themselves are obviously just the tip of iceberg when it comes to the veneration of Stalin in contemporary Russia .
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Old 08-28-2022, 03:35 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
I'm regrettably having a hard time finding any good links offhand , but any perusal of ( say ) a video of a National Bolshevik demonstration will probably feature several people wearing such T shirts , though the Nazbols themselves are obviously just the tip of iceberg when it comes to the veneration of Stalin in contemporary Russia .
I must say, you've completely lost me. Must be some new trend. Probably mostly Moscow or western Russia-based.

edit: oh, I see. I looked up "Nazbol". It's a fringe phenom. Outside of my experience/observation/concern. I'll pass, thanks. Don't give it more significance than it deserves. The mainstream is as I described.
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Old 08-29-2022, 02:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,676 posts, read 4,833,075 times
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I think many Russians give Stalin a pass because he was the leader at the time of WWII. Like many westerners give a pass to Winston Churchill and JFK despite their own shortcomings mainly because they were also leaders during WWII. I’m sure if Hitler won the war, Germans would probably give him a pass too. (Now I’m not equating these leaders to be on the same level of “evil”, but they all did things that by today’s standards would be unacceptable)

Furthermore Stalin is credited for pulling Russia out of a backwater agricultural country to an industrial superpower in a matter of a couple decades which is no small feat to be scoffed at, unfortunately that progress came at the cost of many people being imprisoned and killed, but to some I suppose it was worth it, or at least they choose not to acknowledge those dark moments, so that the positive achievements shine all the more brighter.
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Old 08-29-2022, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
906 posts, read 429,820 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I must say, you've completely lost me. Must be some new trend. Probably mostly Moscow or western Russia-based.

edit: oh, I see. I looked up "Nazbol". It's a fringe phenom. Outside of my experience/observation/concern. I'll pass, thanks. Don't give it more significance than it deserves. The mainstream is as I described.

While I'm not in the least a particular believer in the objectivity of the source I'm about to link , there nonetheless seems to be a much more visible amount of Russians who approve of the actions of Stalin , when compared to the amount of ( say ) Romanians who approve of the actions of Ceausescu :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGmY...2FRadioLiberty




FWIW I don't believe/am not in the least trying to claim that denying/downplaying/approving of Stalin's actions is the mainstream stance among Russians in general , only that Russia very much seems to have a larger amount of people who do as such when compared to the amount of their counterparts in other formerly Communist countries .
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Old 08-29-2022, 09:46 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,063 posts, read 106,870,458 times
Reputation: 115814
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
While I'm not in the least a particular believer in the objectivity of the source I'm about to link , there nonetheless seems to be a much more visible amount of Russians who approve of the actions of Stalin , when compared to the amount of ( say ) Romanians who approve of the actions of Ceausescu :

FWIW I don't believe/am not in the least trying to claim that denying/downplaying/approving of Stalin's actions is the mainstream stance among Russians in general , only that Russia very much seems to have a larger amount of people who do as such when compared to the amount of their counterparts in other formerly Communist countries .
Strange. Very strange. Notice the speaker is someone, who's too young to even have experienced or remembered Soviet life at all, or to hae heard about older relatives who disappeared. He (and whatever crowd he follows) can make up any nonsense they want. BTW, I'm not going to watch the video. But I wonder what kids are taught in school these days, about that era of history.
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Old 08-29-2022, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
5,676 posts, read 4,833,075 times
Reputation: 4880
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I think many Russians give Stalin a pass because he was the leader at the time of WWII. Like many westerners give a pass to Winston Churchill and JFK despite their own shortcomings mainly because they were also leaders during WWII. I’m sure if Hitler won the war, Germans would probably give him a pass too. (Now I’m not equating these leaders to be on the same level of “evil”, but they all did things that by today’s standards would be unacceptable)

Furthermore Stalin is credited for pulling Russia out of a backwater agricultural country to an industrial superpower in a matter of a couple decades which is no small feat to be scoffed at, unfortunately that progress came at the cost of many people being imprisoned and killed, but to some I suppose it was worth it, or at least they choose not to acknowledge those dark moments, so that the positive achievements shine all the more brighter.
I meant FDR thanks Ruth4Truth
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