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I disagree, it is NOT lazy parenting...do you really think we parents who spank enjoyed doing so...
Courage yes? Real effort and discipline (on the parents), no. It takes discipline and patience to discipline a kid without spanking them. And it's a LOT MORE WORK.
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No body in their right mind likes making their child cry or unhappy??????
This suggestion, suggests that other methods of discipline, DO NOT make kids unhappy.
The pro-spanking people automatically assume that if a parent does not spank, then they do not employ any sort of discipline at all.
Quite the contrary. The methods employed by positive discipline take a lot more work, intellectual creativity, and patience that merely swating a kid on the butt.
However, I think the OUTCOME is better because you teach your child how to get along with others, including their own family.
I will never understand why treating a kid differently as a kid is supposed to treat them how to function in society. After all, if someone pisses us off, and rightfully so, we do not have permission to hit them because we don't like the way we behave. We have to find methods to cope with them, and use our words to persuade them into our corner.
The idea of positive discipline is to discipline a child by making them desire to cooperate, not bullying them into submission.
It doesn't work with adults... or at least it is not deemed socially acceptable to try that routine with adults.
How the heck are you supposed to teach someone who one day will be an adult the right way to act, if you are teaching them one thing as a kid, and then expect them to go 180 as an adult?
You teach methods that you want them to employ the rest of their lives.
[LEFT][SIZE=+1]Positive Discipline is based on mutual respect and cooperation. Positive Discipline incorporated firmness with dignity and respect as the foundation of teaching life skills and inner locust of control. Positive Discipline teaches the children self-discipline and responsibility (Nelson, 1996, p15).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]---[/SIZE]
How fine is "fine"? Fine is relative. Yes, most of us turned out just "fine." We can laugh at some of the punishments we received as a child--and even say we deserved them. However, if we had been allowed to learn from our mistakes instead of being made to pay for them, is it possible we might be even better than "fine"?
Punishment is designed to make children "pay" for their mistakes. Discipline that teaches (the definition we prefer) is designed to help children learn from their mistakes in an atmosphere of encouragement and support. I Was Punished, and I Turned Out Just Fine[/LEFT]
[LEFT][SIZE=+1]Positive Discipline is based on mutual respect and cooperation. Positive Discipline incorporated firmness with dignity and respect as the foundation of teaching life skills and inner locust of control. Positive Discipline teaches the children self-discipline and responsibility (Nelson, 1996, p15).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]---[/SIZE]
How fine is "fine"? Fine is relative. Yes, most of us turned out just "fine." We can laugh at some of the punishments we received as a child--and even say we deserved them. However, if we had been allowed to learn from our mistakes instead of being made to pay for them, is it possible we might be even better than "fine"?
Punishment is designed to make children "pay" for their mistakes. Discipline that teaches (the definition we prefer) is designed to help children learn from their mistakes in an atmosphere of encouragement and support. I Was Punished, and I Turned Out Just Fine[/LEFT]
Roseba, and all those who keep trying to design a parent who spanks into some brutal ogare and lazy parent...you have no idea....who we are, or how we made sacrifices to raise our kids....
I think, it might be best to assume, since you've never known us personally or viewed our parenting skills, to stop for a moment and realize, you are wrong...in judging others who are probably just as good, if not maybe, some better at parenting then you might be....
parents who spank their children are not any different then you, do not feel any less love for their kids...and are not huge green misfits of pain and abuse, who spank their kids every single day, raw....
Be reasonable....and a tad more open minded....because your last few posts echo great misinformation about people you simply do not know.
and yes, indeed, children, as well as adults, need to know there may be great consequences for their bad choices or actions....or bad words to others...and some things are simply unacceptable....and deserve consequences...we reap what we sow, yanno?
in this world today, there is not nearly enough reminders to children and adults as well, it's NOT ok, to do certain things, and spanking for me, always remained a trump card to let my son know, you REALLY did something wrong and you will not tempt fate to do it again....
sorry, but you raise your kids your way, and mine my way, and keep the government out of it, cuz, as long as there is no abuse, spanking a kid IS simply parenting...regardless of what any wacko says about it...or trys to degrade someone for using corpral punishment....sheeesh...get a grip....yanno?
And yes, you don't have to lecture any of us on how much work parenting is....believe me, we know....
Punishment is designed to make children "pay" for their mistakes. Discipline that teaches (the definition we prefer) is designed to help children learn from their mistakes in an atmosphere of encouragement and support.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Encouragement and support are good, nice things, and we all like them, but they are emphatically not what's needed when a child is attempting to flush the cat down the toilet.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Encouragement and support are good, nice things, and we all like them, but they are emphatically not what's needed when a child is attempting to flush the cat down the toilet.
Well if the kid is attempting to flush the cat down the toilet, the kid has some major problems that may need professional help.
Roseba, and all those who keep trying to design a parent who spanks into some brutal ogare and lazy parent...you have no idea....who we are, or how we made sacrifices to raise our kids....
You think you are debating with someone who is not a parent? I have a kid.
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I think, it might be best to assume, since you've never known us personally or viewed our parenting skills, to stop for a moment and realize, you are wrong...in judging others who are probably just as good, if not maybe, some better at parenting then you might be....
I judge people by their debate style. It says a lot about WHO they are, and how they are raised.
I also judge people by the things they say.
I never said parents are ogres, or even child abusers.
But what I have tried to say, is that spanking is probably, a less PRODUCTIVE way of handling one's business, and the outcome is more likely to not be as positive as it COULD be if another method was chosen.
As a parent, who had been spanked, do you know how EASY it would be for me to spank my kid. From my personal experience, dealing with a young child, it would be a LOT EASIER to spank her, than to parent her the way my husband and I have decided to parent her. Our method takes more time, a lot more patience, and the ability to keep cool under duress. It takes a whole lot of discipline to not yell and to not act in a negative manner.
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parents who spank their children are not any different then you, do not feel any less love for their kids...and are not huge green misfits of pain and abuse, who spank their kids every single day, raw....
Frankly, I see adults all the time, who have good jobs, and have reasonably productive lives, make tons of money who have HUGE issues. Some of them are in positions of power, some of them are middle management. These people get offended too easily. People who automatically think they are being persecuted. People who are so insecure of their position, that they take credit for other people's work, or people who are too afraid to admit when they make a mistake.
The adult world is filled with pretty normal people who could use a few rounds of mental health sessions to optimize their lives and have better relationships as a whole.
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Be reasonable....and a tad more open minded....because your last few posts echo great misinformation about people you simply do not know.
How you figure? I was raised as someone who was spanked. I know both sides from personal experience.
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and yes, indeed, children, as well as adults, need to know there may be great consequences for their bad choices or actions....or bad words to others...and some things are simply unacceptable....and deserve consequences...we reap what we sow, yanno?
Yes, and the consequences when my daughter doesn't want to wear her mittens out in the street, is that are hands get really cold. The consequences to not wanting to eat dinner when it's served is she goes to bed without dinner. This is called a natural consequence.
[SIZE=2][LEFT]Natural consequences allow the discomfort to occur naturally.
Sometimes there is not natural consequence. That is when you do a logical consequence. So when my daughter ran too far ahead of me in a big store, and I couldn't find her immediately, the logical consequences for her, was that she had to hold my hand or be strapped in a stroller at all times. (She absolutely hated this but understood WHY she was being punished.) She has never ran away from me again.[/LEFT]
[SIZE=2][LEFT]Punishment must fit the misbehavior. Punishment that does not fit may only arouse a child’s anger (in my case) or cause retaliation (in my brother's case, where often his retaliation ended up hurting himself in the end), such as a child’s ignoring future requests by the parent.[/LEFT]
[/SIZE]
[LEFT][/SIZE]You talk about being open minded, yet your ONLY method of "showing consequences" is with a spanking which is pretty arbitrary, and completely disconnected to action at hand. [/LEFT]
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you REALLY did something wrong and you will not tempt fate to do it again....
That never ever stopped my brother from doing the things he used to do. Spanking would only be a logical consequence to an action, is if that action was the kid hitting you, or someone else. Otherwise, it is not at all connected to the action. The only thing hitting does is teaches, "If you dislike what someone is doing, you can hit them to make them stop." That's the logical conclusion. I'm not sure how that forms a well-functioning adult, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to teach one's kids something in order to unteach them something later.
There is nothing worse than doing things a certain way, just because your mother did it, and her mother, and her mother. SOME THOUGHT should go into WHY things are done a certain way. It was precisely BECAUSE I got spanked that I decided that it wasn't an adequate method of punishment because frankly, I remember a lot of the thoughts I had, even when I was as young as 3. The more effective punishments, from my recollection, was restriction of TV use, restriction from going out to see my friends, the taking of my allowance. Those were FAR MORE effective than any spanking I ever had.
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sorry, but you raise your kids your way, and mine my way, and keep the government out of it,
I never said anything about the government being involved. But that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on the matter.
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cuz, as long as there is no abuse, spanking a kid IS simply parenting...
Mindless parenting.
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regardless of what any wacko says about it...or trys to degrade someone for using corpral punishment....sheeesh...get a grip....yanno?
That's your chip. I never said a such thing in this thread. And the fact that you defend something I never said illustrates a lot about what I'm talking about...
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And yes, you don't have to lecture any of us on how much work parenting is....believe me, we know....
We who? I'm a parent as well. Or do you think people who subscribe to attachment parenting are just theorists without kids? That is your implication.
FWIW - A lot of people solicate unwanted parenting advise, mostly based on old-school methods. I can't believe how many people still sterilize baby bottles. We have had a sanitary municipal drinking water system in this country for over 50 years! And, most people have dishwashers. This is EXACTLY the stuff I'm talking about. People just repeat, generation to generation what their parents did, without any thought to whether it is actually the best way to do things.
Personally, a nurture, affection based parenting with mutual respect is the best way to raise a child to become a nuturing, affectional, respectful adult. LEAD BY EXAMPLE, not by DO AS I SAY, BUT NOT AS I DO.
However, if we had been allowed to learn from our mistakes instead of being made to pay for them, is it possible we might be even better than "fine"?
I learned from my mistakes.
If I touched a hot object and it burned me: I learned not to do it again.
If I picked on the cats too much and got scratched: I learned not to do it again.
I dropped the A-bomb and got my mouth washed out with soap: I learned not to do it again.
Putting me in a corner did no good. My mind wanders too much for it to be a punishment. In fact, any form of "time out" never worked because of my over-active mind. Tell me that you're "not happy" and it never clicked in. Taking away toys or privileges never worked - I'd find something else to amuse myself with. Severe ADHD - it's a powerful discipline deflector.
In the end, most parents who spank are doing so because they've tried everything. Yes, maybe they should've done more when the child is younger - but we all make mistakes in parenting. Spanking, it's a last-resort tool used to get the child's attention.
It's not supposed to be a wailing with leather belt until you had welts. It's a swat. It gets the child's attention to your blatant unhappiness to their actions. It's the last resort to say "Mommy/Daddy is not happy. You've done something to upset us."
The government should have no right to dictate how to be a parent; rather than just trying to create a sheepish people who will do what they're told or face the consequences of jail or loss of children. And that is what the government is slowly doing.
And people are letting it happen. Just because you don't agree with spanking doesn't mean it should be enforced on the rest of the public. Just because you don't smoke doesn't mean it should be banned from public. Don't like salt? The government's trying to eliminate as much salt as possible from foods. Just wait until the government tries to get rid of something that you do or like.
I know I tangeted off topic, but let people make their own decisions concerning the rearing of their own children. As long as they aren't beating the child to death - it should be none of your concern.
When the child is grown, he/she can make their own decision about their parent's discipline method. And from their experiences, they can decide what they feel is best for their own.
[quote=roseba;2194396]You think you are debating with someone who is not a parent? I have a kid.
I never said you didn't....or weren't.
I judge people by their debate style. It says a lot about WHO they are, and how they are raised.
Yes, it may, but it also may not....
I never said parents are ogres, or even child abusers.
Everything but? And I am sorry, I meant ogars...
But what I have tried to say, is that spanking is probably, a less PRODUCTIVE way of handling one's business, and the outcome is more likely to not be as positive as it COULD be if another method was chosen.
You may think so, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong, it is simply how we feel about this issue...
As a parent, who had been spanked, do you know how EASY it would be for me to spank my kid. From my personal experience, dealing with a young child, it would be a LOT EASIER to spank her, than to parent her the way my husband and I have decided to parent her. Our method takes more time, a lot more patience, and the ability to keep cool under duress. It takes a whole lot of discipline to not yell and to not act in a negative manner.
I wouldn't care if you spanked your children once in a while...
I'm going to ask this question again, which no one answered....I spanked my child 3 - 4 times in his life at home, which amounted to, a spanking every 4 years or less? And I was cool, I didn't wig out and loose it and beat him raw....I swated him a few times on his butt....lightly, nothing earth shattering?
Frankly, I see adults all the time, who have good jobs, and have reasonably productive lives, make tons of money who have HUGE issues. Some of them are in positions of power, some of them are middle management. These people get offended too easily. People who automatically think they are being persecuted. People who are so insecure of their position, that they take credit for other people's work, or people who are too afraid to admit when they make a mistake.
And so do I, but on the up side, I also see mature adults who are fair, confident, kind, caring and secure in their positions, what doesn't that have to do with spanking a kid? I fear nothing....and I'd be the first one to admit, I've made mistakes, ask anyone who knows me.
The adult world is filled with pretty normal people who could use a few rounds of mental health sessions to optimize their lives and have better relationships as a whole.
So, what, you think I need some sessions, b/c I've spanked my son????? I've seen those kind of people to...but yanno what, life isn't always fair, right or just...and some things you positively cannot control...along with some people....
How you figure? I was raised as someone who was spanked. I know both sides from personal experience.
So do I?????
Yes, and the consequences when my daughter doesn't want to wear her mittens out in the street, is that are hands get really cold. The consequences to not wanting to eat dinner when it's served is she goes to bed without dinner. This is called a natural consequence.
Yes, indeed, and I surely do not merrit those issues to be worth spanking for???
[SIZE=2][LEFT]Natural consequences allow the discomfort to occur naturally.[/SIZE][/LEFT]
So we agree there, you see, I'm not that bad of a person after all....LOL
[LEFT]
[SIZE=2]Sometimes there is not natural consequence. That is when you do a logical consequence. So when my daughter ran too far ahead of me in a big store, and I couldn't find her immediately, the logical consequences for her, was that she had to hold my hand or be strapped in a stroller at all times. (She absolutely hated this but understood WHY she was being punished.) She has never ran away from me again.
and there again, I agree, hey, look at us, we're on a roll here....
Punishment must fit the misbehavior. Punishment that does not fit may only arouse a child’s anger (in my case) or cause retaliation (in my brother's case, where often his retaliation ended up hurting himself in the end), such as a child’s ignoring future requests by the parent.
I'm very sorry this happened to your brother....but maybe it wasn't the spanking that bought it out of him, maybe it was much more then that, and would have come out with or without the spanking.
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[LEFT][/SIZE]You talk about being open minded, yet your ONLY method of "showing consequences" is with a spanking which is pretty arbitrary, and completely disconnected to action at hand. [/LEFT]
No, now there your wrong, it certainly wasn't my only method...I don't know how many times I have to say this....I didn't spank every single time my son misbehaved or did something wrong? Why do you all insist differently???? That I find incredibly frustrating and more so, perhaps calculating to prove your point, whatever the reason...your wrong.
That never ever stopped my brother from doing the things he used to do. Spanking would only be a logical consequence to an action, is if that action was the kid hitting you, or someone else. Otherwise, it is not at all connected to the action. The only thing hitting does is teaches, "If you dislike what someone is doing, you can hit them to make them stop." That's the logical conclusion. I'm not sure how that forms a well-functioning adult, and I'm not sure it's a good idea to teach one's kids something in order to unteach them something later.
Well, it stopped my son, and he wasn't worse for wear for it...matter of fact, he has thanked me, for it....I had a very military voice, and was strict...so, spanking him, was not really my first, second or third recourse. Spaking was saved for those times when he WAS REALLY BAD.
There is nothing worse than doing things a certain way, just because your mother did it, and her mother, and her mother. SOME THOUGHT should go into WHY things are done a certain way. It was precisely BECAUSE I got spanked that I decided that it wasn't an adequate method of punishment because frankly, I remember a lot of the thoughts I had, even when I was as young as 3. The more effective punishments, from my recollection, was restriction of TV use, restriction from going out to see my friends, the taking of my allowance. Those were FAR MORE effective than any spanking I ever had.
Well, you may be right, but I'm so thankful to God that my mother had the courage that her mother, and her mother before her, spanked us...b/c if she hadn't, I might not still be alive....believe me, I was a handful...extremely adventurous, and would do anything at a dare...no matter how dangerous...so, for me, it worked wonders....and because of it, I'm still alive...you have no idea.
I never said anything about the government being involved. But that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on the matter.
No, maybe you didn't but that is the subject matter of this thread....
Mindless parenting.
No, I wasn't at all a mindless parent...matter of fact, ours was the house that all the kids came to....I was a youth group leader, and enjoyed the kids, and put a lot of time in them...and probably did things for kids that a lot of other parents ignored...like bought a neighbor and his mother fuel so they could heat their home, and bought warm clothes for him, etc. I don't consider that mindless, when I was the parent that took the kids everywhere, took them fishing, camping, swimming, to Sunday School, and cooked something special for each of their birthdays....played games with them for hours on end....included them in all we did...left them have many sleep overs at our home...packed them all into the car, with loads of food and sodas in a cooler and took them to drive in movies...or rented movies for them, took them to amuzement parks....no mame, I am not nor will ever be a mindless parent...and you, with those words insult me to the highest degree.
but I forgive you, cuz it's Christmas....
Girlfriend, lets just call it a stahlmate, and agree to disagree instead of insulting each other with cruel words to prove our points, yanno? Whataya say? extending my hand out to shake yours....it might be best if we just let it go....yanno?
You may think so, but it doesn't make you right and me wrong, it is simply how we feel about this issue...
Yes. That is how I feel about the issue. I have studied it. Given it a lot of thought, even before becoming a parent. And that's the whole point of debating. I might not pursuade you to think about it, but someone else reading might think that some of the things I have said do have merit, even if it means enough merit to look into it, or think about it.
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I wouldn't care if you spanked your children once in a while...
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I'm going to ask this question again, which no one answered....I spanked my child 3 - 4 times in his life at home, which amounted to, a spanking every 4 years or less? And I was cool, I didn't wig out and loose it and beat him raw....I swated him a few times on his butt....lightly, nothing earth shattering?
Certainly not earth shattering. It just not the method that I think it is productive, especially since most spankers, spank their kids (not abuse) them regularly.
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And so do I, but on the up side, I also see mature adults who are fair, confident, kind, caring and secure in their positions, what doesn't that have to do with spanking a kid? I fear nothing....and I'd be the first one to admit, I've made mistakes, ask anyone who knows me.
The point I'm making is, doesn't it make sense to treat a "little person" the same way you would treat a "big person"? You certainly wouldn't spank an adult, no matter how egregious their error is. I'm not sure how you teach "do one to others, if you don't do unto them."
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So, what, you think I need some sessions, b/c I've spanked my son?????
No. I'm saying that people often taught that they do things because that was the way it's always been done, and look how grand they are. If they are not actually grand, they may not be able to judge their short comings adequately enough to make that accessment about themselves, or their interpersonal behavioral styles.
I don't know you and haven't seen you do anything particularly pathelogical.
But I've seen some pretty interesting views into some people's psychology on this board (and other boards) where people self-proclaim to be good people, when from what I see, they have quiet a few short-comings in their approach to life. (as far as being good.) For the record, I'm not a perfect person, sometimes I'm really bad, and I am far too aware of my shortcomings, but I strive to be better because I'm pretty well aware of what those shortcomings are. (many people are completely clueless to their short-comings and need someone to put them on video see it.)
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I've seen those kind of people to...but yanno what, life isn't always fair, right or just...and some things you positively cannot control...along with some people....
Your not supposed to control people. You are supposed to pursuade and coerce them willingly.
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So do I?????
You weren't spanked, and now you spank?
Yes, indeed, and I surely do not merrit those issues to be worth spanking for???
I've seen kids get spanked for things like that. I'd prefer to take that out of the equation since physicality (petty violence) is not acceptable in any circumstance other than self-defense. Why teach something that is not acceptable.
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So we agree there, you see, I'm not that bad of a person after all....LOL
That's your own projection of what I said. I didn't say you were a bad person.
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I'm very sorry this happened to your brother....but maybe it wasn't the spanking that bought it out of him, maybe it was much more then that, and would have come out with or without the spanking.
Could be. But I can't see how anything productive can come of it. It's not a logical consequence to an action.
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Why do you all insist differently???? That I find incredibly frustrating and more so, perhaps calculating to prove your point, whatever the reason...your wrong.
Because your insistance that without spanking kids run amok and have no control or discipline. It makes it seem that it is unfathomable, that there are other methods that instill a desired outcome.
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Well, you may be right, but I'm so thankful to God that my mother had the courage that her mother, and her mother before her, spanked us...b/c if she hadn't, I might not still be alive....believe me, I was a handful...extremely adventurous, and would do anything at a dare...no matter how dangerous...so, for me, it worked wonders....and because of it, I'm still alive...you have no idea.
Those reasons that you lived dangerously could have other reasons. In my case, I didn't feel adequately cared about. (Because my parents were so consumed with their own lives.) Usually, that kind of behavior has a lot to do with feelings about the parents and little to do with discipline. My neighbors daughter is exactly the way you describe yourself. She has been spanked. It did not deter her in the least.
Effective deterrants of that kind of behavior starts at an early age. If the child parent attachment is really strong, those behaviors never start because their is a mutual trust. Of course it's a lot more complicated than that.
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I don't consider that mindless, when I was the parent that took the kids everywhere, took them fishing, camping, swimming, to Sunday School, and cooked something special for each of their birthdays....played games with them for hours on end....
All of that is fun. It's action oriented. But a secure attachment is based on more than doing things together. Not saying you did this, but my DH's father did all these things with him. He also yelled at him for 3 hours at a time. There are many emotional things that can cause problems for budding adults, even if all the 'actions' one does are right. I happen to think physical violence (no matter how petty), is a great breaker of trust and mutual respect. A kid deserves to be treated with respect, no matter how young they are.
I am not nor will ever be a mindless parent...and you, with those words insult me to the highest degree.
but I forgive you, cuz it's Christmas....
I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to debate you. This is a discussion of abstracts, not personalities, at least I hope so.
Girlfriend, lets just call it a stahlmate, and agree to disagree instead of insulting each other with cruel words to prove our points, yanno? Whataya say? extending my hand out to shake yours....it might be best if we just let it go....yanno? [/quote]
I have cooties from the little one sneezing on me all the time.
Thank god there are'nt many hypie mentalities and the likes.
In the "Ideal" world, we shouldnt have to lock up people who commit crimes because there wont be any crimes commited, we should'nt have to resolve with fire to fight fires (Wars). We should'nt be gullable enough to fight over territory over religion, color, ideoligy. The world would be a such wonderful place to live in, would'nt it?
But in the "REAL" world and the real people who live in it, knows this is far from the truth.
I however would state that spanking is not the answer for a childs wrong doing 24/7, some things like short sharp stares and a rigid "NO" will work, or just the simple explanation. In short "Common sense". But to say spanking is a questionable form of Discipline is "Folly"
cremebrulee, you're too funny but i agree with most of what you said.
Dont really mean to flame here, but i think its a joke to hinge everything on how a person posts when you dont know them personally. Such naiveity.
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