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So, going by your logic. The world should'nt have had to resolve in "Arms" to fight the nazi's and the Japs? whats your solution?
Equating armed conflict with a naughty kid is an extremely inept comparison. By most definitions, war is the failure of diplomacy. Except for the current administration, we generally do not march to law, without employing all other possible options first. Carrots do seem to have a better effect that sticks.
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And if Cops were sent to quench crowd riots,
Riots should not exist if proper tactics are employed BEFORE things escalate.
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should they be sent there with just plain uniforms and diplomacy alone or gangs hurling full metal at one another? because by your logic, this is what they should do.
Only to those who think in terms of black and white.
Or to reduce violence in society we could execute violent criminals. Eliminate them from the equation.
I'm not one that is against capital punishment, if beyond a doubt, the person is guilty of violence to society. But by the time the person has gotten to that stage, they were failed by society a long time prior, either by the parenting they received, or other factors.
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All the laws in world are worthless if the consequences have no teeth.
It's an extremely narrow view of the world, of one thinks the only way to add teeth to discipline is by using physical violence. Discipline should fit the crime. It has a much added learning component. You don't eat when told, you remain hungry. You don't wear a coat, you get cold. You don't come home when told, then you can't go out. You don't do your homework, no computer, or no tv. These are all appropriate for the infraction, and much better learning tools. If your kid pulls you hair, it may be appropriate to pull their hair back. That is a consequence that fits the crime.
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The touchy feel good types have turned our prisons into high budgit resorts.
It may be a high budget resort, but would you like to live there? If not, then I would not worry about what other people are "getting" and worry about what you need to do to get what you want.
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The bad streets in the USA are a walk in the park in comparison. I hear what your trying to say. But I am here to tell you that street thugs don't respect compassion, don't fear the shrinks couch, nor would they hesitate to take your life if you meerly look at them wrong.
And what does that have to do with disciplining a child? Were we talking about how to deal with criminals? I don't think we were.
Disciplining a child cruelly or inappropriately will create that element you are talking about. So doing so makes the perpetrator partially responsible for creating a bad society.
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Unless it is your conjecture that spankings create violent criminals. If that were the case over 50% of america would be violent criminals.
Only in extreme cases. But introducing violence as a means of dealing with bad behavior only conditions the person to believe that violence is a means of controlling someone else's behavior. How do you unlearn that? How many people hit their wives because they were hit as kids. Early impressions are lasting. Even if you can intellectually separate yourself from your early training, its hard to remove that instinct that was drilled into a person early in life. Children, particularly very young children need love and compassion. Just things you eschew with violent criminals. But we're talking about young children, innocent, empty palettes. What you put into that pallette will be with them for the rest of their life.
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No what creates them is a world with weak consequences, bad genetics, and a society that is gullable enough to buy into the idea its all societies fault.
Really? How would you know? Has society universally tried to do it differently to see the outcome of the results, or have they dismissed it without even trying? (Check out other cultures that seem to do it better and get better results in terms of compliant children, successful adults... Japan comes to mind, despite their history of barbarism.)
Certainly not earth shattering. It just not the method that I think it is productive, especially since most spankers, spank their kids (not abuse) them regularly.
OK, lets post a fact here...let me see, where or how, you concluded that "most parents spank their kids reguarly" What survey can you produce to back that statement?
Let's rephrase the pink...
People who spank their kids use that form of discipline regularly. No I haven't done a survey, but I certainly know enough people through the years, who do spank their kids. You are a rare exception.
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Disciplining a little person, is a sight different then dealing with a big person,
a big person, is supposed to know the difference...a little person doesn't until they burn that tiny finger on a candle once...and that is the only way they know...some kids have even shorter attention spans then others, and you can talk so much and try to explain, but....long story short, they will turn you off...like it or not....
Many adults DON'T know the difference, and I have been astonished to see that my little person actually knows better than some adults.
With the candle, I will use our example of the stove. DH turned the stove on and let her close enough so she can feel the heat. Then gave her the sign language HOT. Repeated it over and over and over. She gets it. She does not play games when it comes to hot. How is spanking going to make her know not to touch something hot... or how is spanking going to be more effective than what we did?
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I think, and this is the way, I've always tried to live my life, your short comings are not mine to own...therefore, it is up to me, to concern myself with mine, and try come what may, to better my personality...and that has always been, my personal conviction, as well as, my understanding of life, and I believe I have progressed from my grand parents, and even from my mother...b/c they taught us to be open minded to opinions and personal convictions....what works for you, will not always work for me, and visa versa.....
You missed what I was saying. Perhaps a failure on my part to express myself concisely.
Many people do not examine what they do, and how they do it. They just do it because that is what has always been done. There are many things that people do because their great-grandmother did it. I heard a story. I don't remember the precise details but it went something like this: It was some recipe for a dish, past down from generation to generation. It deviated from standard convention and used a square pan instead of a round one. And no one bothered to ask why it had to be done in the square pan. It turned out, it was because the great-grandmother, who invented the recipe didn't own a round pan. Now I don't know if the story was precisely about the shape of the pan, but the idea is that it was done a certain way because at the time, that was the way it had to be done, but it doesn't necessarily need to be that way anymore.
A lot of child-rearing wisdom is passed down just like this. My skin crawls when I see babies under six months (but older than newborn) covered in heavy fleece blankets in the middle of August in NY. (It's crazy hot.) Babies can regulate their own body temperature after they are above 10-12 lbs. A light blanket, at most will due! But they do it, because that is the way it was always done.
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hmmmm, you don't consider me, particularly pathelogical...well, bully for you? What an incredibly toxic statement to make to another human being because you disagree?
I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with you. (except that you may take offense far too easily reading things between the lines that were not there).
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Shortcomings or, is that all they know, all they've been taught... me thinks your a bit cocky when it comes to other human beings, who may not have the mentality you do...quit frankly, your nose is way to high in the air, for you to understand human behavior and/or people who lack college degrees, but own quit a lot more common sense & human decency, then most...they are people, who have tried and done their best, physically and mentally, they may not meet with your standards, but baby, I'd pick them to be on my team any time...and, on that note, I refuse to take this any further....you can't see anything productive in your opinion if it's not the way you do things...and there is no compromise, therefore futile to discuse this or take it any further.
Wow. You are very offended and said a whole lot of things that were not stated in any of my posts. I'm not off the mark to say that most adults (including me) have issues they need to work on, and are blind to them. Some are more self-aware then others.
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Oh, and if that is a pathological reply...so be it...
No, not pathological, but the 4th reply where in some part of the post you saw an insult that was not there.
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quite candidly, to me, it's not that important....have a great day
Oh contraire. No one initiates a thread about something that they don't care about.
People who spank their kids use that form of discipline regularly. No I haven't done a survey, but I certainly know enough people through the years, who do spank their kids. You are a rare exception.
Well then, how do you know, if you can generalize, you've got to have the info to back up that statement, b/c by your statement, then, it would vocalize that you know everyone all over the country...and I'm certain you don't. What you are doing is making a statement from your own opinion...
With the candle, I will use our example of the stove. DH turned the stove on and let her close enough so she can feel the heat. Then gave her the sign language HOT. Repeated it over and over and over. She gets it. She does not play games when it comes to hot. How is spanking going to make her know not to touch something hot... or how is spanking going to be more effective than what we did?
Roseba, we did the same thing...but sometimes things happen, like the kid who tries to flush the cat down the toilet and your comment was, "the kid must have some mental issues" Roseba....think, a toddler still in diapers who cannot talk, will do crazy things as such, doesn't mean they have mental issues...sheeesh?
You missed what I was saying. Perhaps a failure on my part to express myself concisely.
Many people do not examine what they do, and how they do it. They just do it because that is what has always been done. There are many things that people do because their great-grandmother did it. I heard a story. I don't remember the precise details but it went something like this: It was some recipe for a dish, past down from generation to generation. It deviated from standard convention and used a square pan instead of a round one. And no one bothered to ask why it had to be done in the square pan. It turned out, it was because the great-grandmother, who invented the recipe didn't own a round pan. Now I don't know if the story was precisely about the shape of the pan, but the idea is that it was done a certain way because at the time, that was the way it had to be done, but it doesn't necessarily need to be that way anymore.
No, I didn't miss what you said at all, because you generalize when you want to win your point over...again, you say...many people do not examine what they do..."How do you know that, you cannot realistically and factually make a statement like that" How many is many people Roseba?
A lot of child-rearing wisdom is passed down just like this. My skin crawls when I see babies under six months (but older than newborn) covered in heavy fleece blankets in the middle of August in NY. (It's crazy hot.) Babies can regulate their own body temperature after they are above 10-12 lbs. A light blanket, at most will due! But they do it, because that is the way it was always done.
Maybe Roseba, maybe that is what their doctors told them to do...might drive you crazy, but believe me, doctors tell their patients to do all kinds of stuff, and every doctor has a different opinion...my son's doctor wouldn't allow their child to have baby cereal, and I found that really dumb...but I'm no doctor, it is what we did, and the cereal helped satisfy my son more...but...doesn't say, it's absoloutely wrong or right...
Roseba, there comes a time, when it would be much more beneficial to listen, instead of trying to make all of us who spanked out to be wrong...maybe in your eyes it is wrong, but not in ours...but to prove your point, you must stay within boundaries of the discussion and not exhagerate the issues or talk as if you've got the concensis of the entire U.S. You don't....and yes, there are people who feel like you do, but there are also people who feel like we do...our kids grew up fine...we didn't beat them, we didn't leave a bruse, or even a mark, and we didn't spank regularly....and no Roseba, most parents do not spank regularly...is there child abuse, yes....there is, but spanking is not beating a child....and there are exceptions when we felt and still feel that it IS in fact necessary to do so. And believe me, it is not an easy thing to do...quite frankly I hate it like anything when I hurt people...so spanking was not a regular form of discipline nor was it an enjoyable task. Doesn't make you less of a person, or me, less of a person...and I believe, your a great person, but, you have to allow, people their opinions and not accuse them of being lazy parents or mentally incompitant, b/c you disagree with them....on this issue.
I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with you. (except that you may take offense far too easily reading things between the lines that were not there).
Wow. You are very offended and said a whole lot of things that were not stated in any of my posts. I'm not off the mark to say that most adults (including me) have issues they need to work on, and are blind to them. Some are more self-aware then others.
No, not pathological, but the 4th reply where in some part of the post you saw an insult that was not there.
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Oh contraire. No one initiates a thread about something that they don't care about.
Oh contraire?????? Roseba.....I wasn't saying I didn't care about the thread...I was saying I don't really care what you think of me as a person, b/c I spanked. And I am sorry I didn't clarify....I saw this woman on TV...and to me, to be perfectly honest...she looks like she had some real issues. Roseba....the government has no right to initiate or foster any legal new laws....and they shouldn't get involved...regardless of what you and I believe...period.
To make a point....do you know, it took one woman, one really crazy, mentally disturbed woman, who took prayer out of schools. Now, I don't know, how I feel about it, I'm just saying this was a women who allowed her children to read porn...but, this one woman, successfully, accomplished the task of getting a law passed to prohibit prayer in schools...my point is...
you open a can of worms with something like this, there are rules on the books already about abuse....and more and more teachers and hospitals are aware and report any suspected abuse right away. But when you start expecting the government to make laws and take over that, my friend, is a very very dangerous thing.
So, Yes, I am against the government sticking their noses into it, when they refuse to keep already convicted child molesters away from society. Now, I suggest, if you really want to do something, everyone, should march against this...and really protect your kids...our kids...everyone's kids...that is an issue, that is worth getting upset about...
I'm very glad and happy to see, there are still parents out there who do spank...thanks be to all of you for standing up for what you believe is right...
I tried the spanking thing on my boys. Once that wore off I had to resort to putting knots on their heads big enough to pitch off of. Worked really well.
OK, lets post a fact here...let me see, where or how, you concluded that "most parents spank their kids reguarly" What survey can you produce to back that statement?
"About seven in ten (71%) mothers reported spanking their toddlers in the past week, with 6.2% spanking the child during the course of their interview for the study. Those who used corporal punishment reported using it an average of 3.6 times per week. This amounted to an estimated 187 spankings a year."
I tried the spanking thing on my boys. Once that wore off I had to resort to putting knots on their heads big enough to pitch off of. Worked really well.
Once again - it appears from the poll in this thread, a majority do not want spanking outlawed - keep the government out of parental discipline rights
yes, and I request this thread be closed....
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