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Except it isn't the same product. Are these gay couples asking the people to write gay slogans on the cake? Are they asking them to be a participant in the wedding? Are they asking them to do anything other than cook and ice/decorate the cake?
They are asking them to provide a product and service for an immoral ceremony. Straight people ask them to provide a product and service for a moral ceremony. It's the ceremony that is different. Would you really have no problem selling your goods if you knew it would be used directly in something that you felt strongly was immoral??
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
If you have a problem with baking wedding cakes for ALL people who ask for them, then get out of the wedding cake business. What is you guys always say? Oh yea.... Just go somewhere else... In this case, move your business somewhere that will tolerant bigotry, or stop selling the cakes you ignorantly think will hurt your place with God. Some God you got there!
Yeah the old put up or shut up argument. Just shows the intolerance emanating from your side of the fence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
As we have all been saying, even some Christians.... The fact that you don't believe gay people should be treated as equals tells us all we need to know about you and your fundamentalist midset. Disgusting.
I certainly believe they should be treated as equals. And so do the business owners. They have no problem selling them something like a doughnut or birthday cake. Absolutely none. But asking for a wedding cake for a SSM is not equal to a wedding cake for a straight wedding. Forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs is disgusting.
A Colorado Appeals Court ruled that a cake baker is not a "religious based" business and therefore is not permitted to take a religious exception to the anti-discrimination laws. If I remember correctly, the ruling did not elaborate as to what might constitute a "religious based" business. I would assume a Christian publishing company, or a Bible book shop, or a communion chalice manufacturer could qualify, but the court did not say. All they said was that a cake baker is not a "religious based" business.
Since the ruling made good sense, it will probably be incorporated into other appeals court rulings in the future. My prediction is that this is how the issue will eventually be determined across the land.
The definition of "religious based" business will be argued in court next. Some people will be unhappy with the results. (Putting crystal ball away for now.)
You watch...this is gonna backfire.
The Religious will find incidents where a Seller was discriminated against, and a Buyer refused to buy based on the Seller being part of a "protected class" of people.
They will get it on video...with the discrimination occuring in no uncertain terms. Stage it if they have to.
Then THEY will drag it through the Courts, demanding 14th Amendment rights.
It's gonna be a big mess...and cause more trouble that it solves in the long run.
Legally forcing Sellers to sell to Buyers that themselves retain the legal right to fully discriminate against those Sellers can certainly be argued as not "fair and equal". MOF...I am of that opinion myself.
You watch...this is gonna backfire.
The Religious will find incidents where a Seller was discriminated against, and a Buyer refused to buy based on the Seller being part of a "protected class" of people.
They will get it on video...with the discrimination occuring in no uncertain terms. Stage it if they have to.
Then THEY will drag it through the Courts, demanding 14th Amendment rights.
It's gonna be a big mess...and cause more trouble that it solves in the long run.
Legally forcing Sellers to sell to Buyers that themselves retain the legal right to fully discriminate against those Sellers can certainly be argued as not "fair and equal". MOF...I am of that opinion myself.
LOL . I hope you are not serious with this claim .
A Colorado Appeals Court ruled that a cake baker is not a "religious based" business and therefore is not permitted to take a religious exception to the anti-discrimination laws. If I remember correctly, the ruling did not elaborate as to what might constitute a "religious based" business. I would assume a Christian publishing company, or a Bible book shop, or a communion chalice manufacturer could qualify, but the court did not say. All they said was that a cake baker is not a "religious based" business.
Since the ruling made good sense, it will probably be incorporated into other appeals court rulings in the future. My prediction is that this is how the issue will eventually be determined across the land.
The definition of "religious based" business will be argued in court next. Some people will be unhappy with the results. (Putting crystal ball away for now.)
My own crystal ball says that fundamentalists will conflate "Christian-owned" with "religious based" and run with it from there.
I think "religious based" is an unfortunate and careless turn of phrase on the part of the court. The real determinant is whether your universe of customers is the general public or not. If you serve the general public then you cannot discriminate against certain members of the general public, for any reason.
If on the other hand, say, you're a church who wants to rent a wedding hall to members in good standing only then you don't have to accept business from the general public and worry about getting, e.g., gay cooties on your facility. As soon as you do accept business from the general public, though, you now have to take all comers.
It's not unlike how in the public sphere (e.g., government facilities) you either have to allow all forms of religious expression, or none. You can't discriminate either for OR against certain groups.
This is such a simple concept but Fundamentalists here keep tap dancing around the simple fact that they want to discriminate in favor of themselves and against other groups, because god, because Jesus, because Bible ... as if that's any more valid a reason to do the Wrong Thing outside their homes and churches than "because the sky is blue".
Not disgusting. Just very telling, Jeff. Very telling.
NO, it's calling LYING. I'm sick and tired of your false implications that I have gay desires. I do not.
If you have to resort to lies and petty games then that doesn't say much about your character.
They are asking them to provide a product and service for an immoral ceremony. Straight people ask them to provide a product and service for a moral ceremony. It's the ceremony that is different. Would you really have no problem selling your goods if you knew it would be used directly in something that you felt strongly was immoral??
Let's put this into perspective, shall we? There are a lot of things people think are immoral, so hopefully you will get this....
Would you sell a car to someone who had a DUI on their record?
Would you sell a mattress to a gay couple?
Would you sell a home to a gay person? Rent an apartment?
Would you do those things for an interracial couple?
If someone thought blacks were beneath whites, would you be okay with them keeping all black people out of their business?
Would you be okay with the gay person in small town America having to drive 30 miles to get groceries because he bigot neighbors wouldn't sell any to him?
Would you be okay with allowing ANYONE to discriminate at will? Where is your cut-off? I know you think non-Christians don't matter, but the fact is, rational people realize that EVERYONE matters, even those you disagree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Yeah the old put up or shut up argument. Just shows the intolerance emanating from your side of the fence.
Oh, I just turned your sides argument around against you. Thank you for showing everyone what a hypocrite you are.
You have said many times before, that if a gay person (or atheist, or anyone you hate) gets turned away, or discriminated against, that they should just shut up and move on. You even said that the lesbian that was being preached to everyday at work should just find another job. Why would that not go both ways, Jeffery? What's the matter? Don't like when the tables are turned?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I certainly believe they should be treated as equals. And so do the business owners. They have no problem selling them something like a doughnut or birthday cake. Absolutely none. But asking for a wedding cake for a SSM is not equal to a wedding cake for a straight wedding. Forcing someone to violate their religious beliefs is disgusting.
No, you do not. You believe that they should be treated as being below straight people. You make that clear here every single day.
What if they go home and do something immoral with that donut or birthday cake? What if *gasp* they use the icing in the bedroom? Still good with selling that to them? What if the wedding cake went to a known adulterer? What if it was going to a couple of a different religion? etc etc
And again, I will ask, HOW is this violating their religious freedom? HOW would selling a wedding cake to a gay couple "violate" their religious beliefs? Does Jesus teach to treat gay people differently than straight people? If someone's sincerely held religious beliefs say that black people are to be treated as second class citizens, are you okay with them discriminating as well? Where does it end Jeff?
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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It seem interesting that there are some on this thread who so vehemently deny that they may be gay or have gay tendencies.
I wonder if it would help to review many high profile pastors, ministers, and politicians who also vehemently railed against same sex rights, and then review how many of those turned out to enjoy and look for the sexual intimacy of other men. It seems to be a truism that is reinforced often.
NO, it's calling LYING. I'm sick and tired of your false implications that I have gay desires. I do not.
If you have to resort to lies and petty games then that doesn't say much about your character.
Uh, oh. hahahahahaha liar liar pants on fire.
I do not care about your desires. Your words are telling. I am not the one who said if the gay baker refused to service you.... You are obsessed with gay. It seems to be all you can think about and post about.
I do not care about your desires. Your words are telling. I am not the one who said if the gay baker refused to service you.... You are obsessed with gay. It seems to be all you can think about and post about.
Own it Jeff. It is okay. I know.
You know full and well the context that I meant in the statement. IF this is all you have to resort to, I tell you what, one more statement implying that I'm gay and you go right on my block list. Tired of this garbage. I'm not the one creating these threads either. You already always on these threads too so guess that makes you MEGA OBSESSED, right? So stupid. Just drop it.
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Still good with selling that to them? What if the wedding cake went to a known adulterer? What if it was going to a couple of a different religion? etc etc
You are obsessed with gay. It seems to be all you can think about and post about. 
