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When I was an atheist, I could not remotely be affected (offended or otherwise) by anything any religious person said or did short of any physical harm. They were completely irrelevant to my life which is why I identify you as a true atheist! Mordant has a similar demeanor.
In my family and close relatives, we had an abundance of alcoholics who were in denial. There was little issue with it back then. Their arguments, emotional reactions, and reasoning are eerily familiar in tone and kind to many of those presented here on the forum (from both sides). I wonder just exactly what the source of denial is with them on these topics.
To compare what happens as a result of alcoholism to these differences of opinions and beliefs is not appropriate in my opinion. Two very different issues, and these sorts of general statements tend to blur the lines between well-reasoned opinion vs opinions and beliefs based on justifications of a different sort.
This too is a generalization that doesn't really address the topic of this thread or the REAL differences between either "side." Without specifics, we're all just blowin' in the wind here...
Not only is it easy to identify who is a true atheist, certainly those who "could not be remotely affected," but more often than not their explanations for why they are atheists demonstrates a demeanor that, yes, mordant and others tend to promote better than others. I won't elaborate, because I sense a bit of that popularity contest sort of thing that sometimes goes on in this forum.
For me it's more about who seems better able to promote the truth of these matters in a mature civil manner while for the most part ignoring the others.
I had a post all typed up and it disappeared. Here's the gist of it - you are intimidated by a strong woman. You just don't like me and I don't like you. Move on MCP, argue with someone else. This is verging on harassment and I can just click a button and you're gone. Or, you can stop, come down off that pedestal you've put yourself on and act like a normal, civilized human being. Then I may not make you disappear.
I just posted somewhere else about taking any of this too seriously, and the difference between those with "thin skins" and those with thicker skins...
Seems you are letting this forum, thread or any one person get under your skin, and I think there are ways to avoid this rather than vacate the premises. I like reading your posts too, so I for one would prefer you continue to promote more of the discussion you prefer without letting anyone get the better of you. Hang in!
The reason the terrorists flew planes into buildings has its basis on religion, and the perceived insults to it.
From Wikipedia:
"Al-Qaeda members believe a Christian–Jewish alliance (led by the United States) is conspiring to be at war against Islam and destroy Islam. As Salafist jihadists, members of al-Qaeda believe that killing non-combatants is religiously sanctioned. Al-Qaeda also opposes what it regards as man-made laws, and wants to replace them exclusively with a strict form of sharīʿa (Islamic religious law which is perceived as divine law)."
Your hypothesis is demonstratively wrong, and no amount of your bloviating will change that.
This is the sort of effort to counter an opinion more in line with what I think fits within the definition of a valid argument. Regardless the issue at hand (I'm not wanting to promote any further discussion about 9/11), just noting how it's done. Something a little better, a little more than simple say so.
Here's to demonstrating how a hypothesis is wrong in any case, as so often needed in this forum if the truth of these matters is to be laid bare.
It is best to read and study and observe all information that flows through and then form an informed opinion. Opinions are all that we can muster because we only see those facts that we already believe in.
We reject those that don’t fit with our world view. Facts themselves are not stable, they change as new facts emerge. Nobody owns the truth.
What Golden points out about why the Vatican was not bombed but the pentagon and WTC if religion was the cause is a valid point. I had never though of that before, very few people have. While pointing a finger dont ignore the ones that point to us, to the US. That is how one can find a semblance of truth.
And while pointing to Islam dont forget the Muslims who also died and who were also among those who helped in rescuing the victims, taxi drivers who gave free rides to get people home from the disaster area.
A good follow up as no doubt this is a complicated subject that can't be so easily distilled into any one simple explanation, but there are valid points made from both perspectives. Neither of which can be ignored or dismissed from a fair, objective and intelligent standpoint. Here again not to get into 9/11, just to say or agree with you that the better informed we can be, the better our conclusions about such things will follow.
A good follow up as no doubt this is a complicated subject that can't be so easily distilled into any one simple explanation, but there are valid points made from both perspectives. Neither of which can be ignored or dismissed from a fair, objective and intelligent standpoint. Here again not to get into 9/11, just to say or agree with you that the better informed we can be, the better our conclusions about such things will follow.
Cheers to that!
The problem with pointing to a religion when the issue is politics, a situation ordinary people can do nothing about but only endure the consequences of actions that they themselves had no part in or even had a voice in. It is a mindless, cynical and a cruel act to point at one group of people and the religion they practice for the failure of governments that wage wars for profit. One cannot be oblivious to the attacks on Muslims and the hate and violence shown for actions beyond their control. Some may not have been even practitioners. Many were perhaps your doctors, teachers, neighbors, boss.
We are all human beings trying our best to live a life and derive some happiness. Some of us are luckier than others because of our privileged position, which can vanish as easily. That humanity always comes before any religion, race, or any other borders we create.
The problem with pointing to a religion when the issue is politics, a situation ordinary people can do nothing about but only endure the consequences of actions that they themselves had no part in or even had a voice in. It is a mindless, cynical and a cruel act to point at one group of people and the religion they practice for the failure of governments that wage wars for profit. One cannot be oblivious to the attacks on Muslims and the hate and violence shown for actions beyond their control. Some may not have been even practitioners. Many were perhaps your doctors, teachers, neighbors, boss.
We are all human beings trying our best to live a life and derive some happiness. Some of us are luckier than others because of our privileged position, which can vanish as easily. That humanity always comes before any religion, race, or any other borders we create.
Personally, all that effort toward being informed, educated, aware has me concluding that more often than not, politics and religion are intertwined in more ways than people tend to realize or appreciate, so again I would argue it's not all one and not the other. I think it is also a big mistake to describe contrary opinion or thinking as "mindless, cynical or cruel," when from another perspective it may just be the truth as best we can ascertain the truth to be. Rarely all black or white, but a mixed blend of gray that requires a further distillation of what is politics and what is religion.
Unfortuately both involve much "good, bad and ugly" regardless what most of us "regular folks" are doing with regard to trying our best to live a life and derive happiness. I'm certainly one of those people. Always encouraging people to "live like you mean it." This, however, does not mean I'm not always inclined to look at all angles of these issues in as informed, fair and objective manner possible, because ultimately, I am also a believer that "the truth shall set us free."
Truth is I've got to sign off now and get onto efforts having more to do with living a life and deriving happiness. Here's hoping we're all somewhat successful with that endeavor today too! Cheers -- LM
Personally, all that effort toward being informed, educated, aware has me concluding that more often than not, politics and religion are intertwined in more ways than people tend to realize or appreciate, so again I would argue it's not all one and not the other. I think it is also a big mistake to describe contrary opinion or thinking as "mindless, cynical or cruel," when from another perspective it may just be the truth as best we can ascertain the truth to be. Rarely all black or white, but a mixed blend of gray that requires a further distillation of what is politics and what is religion.
Unfortuately both involve much "good, bad and ugly" regardless what most of us "regular folks" are doing with regard to trying our best to live a life and derive happiness. I'm certainly one of those people. Always encouraging people to "live like you mean it." This, however, does not mean I'm not always inclined to look at all angles of these issues in as informed, fair and objective manner possible, because ultimately, I am also a believer that "the truth shall set us free."
Truth is I've got to sign off now and get onto efforts having more to do with living a life and deriving happiness. Here's hoping we're all somewhat successful with that endeavor today too! Cheers -- LM
If all perspectives have equal weight and are relative, even when one leads to the cause of violence against and the suffering of innocent people, then such a view does not lead to dialogue or understanding. It only leads to silence.
To compare what happens as a result of alcoholism to these differences of opinions and beliefs is not appropriate in my opinion. Two very different issues, and these sorts of general statements tend to blur the lines between well-reasoned opinion vs opinions and beliefs based on justifications of a different sort.
<snip>
Pass the bottle...
You tend NOT to see the parallels in the underlying thought processes and subconscious motivations of someone in psychological denial (for whatever reason, addiction or otherwise). My Training as a psychologist predisposes me to look for them when I encounter what seems to me to be irrational or emotional intransigence, projection, and misidentification of the motives of others.
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When I was an atheist, I could not remotely be affected (offended or otherwise) by anything any religious person said or did short of any physical harm. They were completely irrelevant to my life which is why I identify you as a true atheist! Mordant has a similar demeanor.
