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For me too when I was young. Then some religious fundamentalists flew some planes into buildings.
Yup, science, logic and mathematical arguments are 'emotional'. Denial appears to run deep in your family.
And that is another reason why some are looked down upon...making dishonest and biased claims like the 9/11 attack was due to Religious based terrorism.
Though I was of the same erroneous opinion for a time.
It was actually a military counter-offensive operation...against a opposing force that had been active for 20 years.
They didn't have the type of armaments and weaponry that had been used against them in their lands...so, they improvised that type of (highly effective) retaliatory mission.
It helps if one has military experience, and has studied war and military tactics...to understand what actually went down.
Of course, some ignorantly hateful will try to claim that "Islamic Based Terrorism" was the reason for it.
Strange they didn't do to the Vatican what they did to the Pentagon & the World Trade Center.
Oh...and for those that still don't know...science and math are only useful to try to figure out how The Divine is comprised and functions...not to "form arguments against it".
Some equate using science and math to prove the metaphorical and allegorical stories in ancient works of literary art are not literal documentary accounts of actual occurrences...as "arguing against the existence of God".
That just further demonstrates their lack of understanding...and their bias.
Yes, we post here to counter dishonest ^^^^theists.
That is another reason that Atheists are looked upon so poorly, and considered the lowest of the low...their claims that Theists are "dishonest" when they point out the Atheists hateful, biased, false accusations against them.
4 out of 5 are Theist...and many view Atheists as on the same level as rapists.
Hopefully the Atheists will get hip to why they are viewed as such...then get squared away, and do what they can & should to improve themselves.
Though it doesn't really matter...Theism is growing in this world, and there will be less Atheists percentagewise as it gains.
And that is another reason why some are looked down upon...making dishonest and biased claims like the 9/11 attack was due to Religious based terrorism.
Though I was of the same erroneous opinion for a time.
It was actually a military counter-offensive operation...against a opposing force that had been active for 20 years.
They didn't have the type of armaments and weaponry that had been used against them in their lands...so, they improvised that type of (highly effective) retaliatory mission.
It helps if one has military experience, and has studied war and military tactics...to understand what actually went down.
Of course, some ignorantly hateful will try to claim that "Islamic Based Terrorism" was the reason for it.
Strange they didn't do to the Vatican what they did to the Pentagon & the World Trade Center.
Oh...and for those that still don't know...science and math are only useful to try to figure out how The Divine is comprised and functions...not to "form arguments against it".
Some equate using science and math to prove the metaphorical and allegorical stories in ancient works of literary art are not literal documentary accounts of actual occurrences...as "arguing against the existence of God".
That just further demonstrates their lack of understanding...and their bias.
The reason the terrorists flew planes into buildings has its basis on religion, and the perceived insults to it.
From Wikipedia:
"Al-Qaeda members believe a Christian–Jewish alliance (led by the United States) is conspiring to be at war against Islam and destroy Islam. As Salafist jihadists, members of al-Qaeda believe that killing non-combatants is religiously sanctioned. Al-Qaeda also opposes what it regards as man-made laws, and wants to replace them exclusively with a strict form of sharīʿa (Islamic religious law which is perceived as divine law)."
Your hypothesis is demonstratively wrong, and no amount of your bloviating will change that.
Arguing is not the issue; it’s a matter of what one chooses to argue about (and where/when/how often) relative to how it affects them on a personal level. Hence I couldn’t care less if someone else believes in a god or prays, particularly relative to the Forum. I’m certainly not offended by such, because it’s meaningless.
That said, relative to the previous example of someone praying for (me and) loved ones I have lost, I certainly would not be offended or interpret it as anything other than a well-meaning thought. It’s certainly not the time for a diatribe to angrily defend my atheism, lol; I would simply thank them and let it go at that.
I agree with you re: ‘thin skins’ of those who are offended, as it is indicative the other person’s opinion matters to them. That said, I strongly disagree there is a promotion of ‘mature exchange’ (particularly relative to this thread) when the entire point of such appears to be proving the other guy (or some elderly religious woman) wrong, lol. That’s the epitome of immaturity.
How many times/different ways can you argue a person’s ‘faith’? It’s an argument which can’t be won; and from my perspective, it only paints us (all atheists) in a negative light. It’s akin to battling an invisible monster with a sword and then (repeatedly) declaring victory.
I just posted another comment in another thread about how everyone who bothers to participate in this forum has all manner of different ways, styles, intents and perspective. No one is going to be happy with every comment posted in this forum, but if one IS going to bother, sure seems to me what's best is to focus on the comments that seem more worthwhile and ignore the others. On the other hand, when someone seems to be posting comments that deserve objection, then that can be part of the "entertainment" here as well.
Ultimately, we've all got the same choice to respond or not. Ignore or not. Visit this forum for whatever our reason(s) or not.
Let us try to lead by example and see what happens. Let be what happens without losing our hair over any of it...
When I was an atheist, I could not remotely be affected (offended or otherwise) by anything any religious person said or did short of any physical harm. They were completely irrelevant to my life which is why I identify you as a true atheist!
The only thing which defines me (or anyone) as a true atheist is my lack of belief in the existence of god(s). That I don’t emotionally lash out regarding my atheism or get offended by people who pray (or think differently than me) is relative to my psychological state/acceptance as opposed to anger/intolerance.
That said, relative to the thread, I think it’s unfortunate the (obvious) display of intolerance and anger tends to get applied to atheists, as a whole; it need not be (nor should be) the case. I like to think we are intelligent and compassionate people (although I’m often proven wrong in this Forum, lol) capable of logically understanding the only way we are able to fight for our rights as atheists is to uphold the rights of those who believe in (any) religion as well. Emotional, angry outbursts and a ‘my way or you’re gone’ approach to atheism does not defend atheism; it defends the ego and simply attacks the rights of others. By so doing, they are foolishly attacking our right not to profess any religion or belief as well.
The reason the terrorists flew planes into buildings has its basis on religion, and the perceived insults to it.
From Wikipedia:
"Al-Qaeda members believe a Christian–Jewish alliance (led by the United States) is conspiring to be at war against Islam and destroy Islam. As Salafist jihadists, members of al-Qaeda believe that killing non-combatants is religiously sanctioned. Al-Qaeda also opposes what it regards as man-made laws, and wants to replace them exclusively with a strict form of sharīʿa (Islamic religious law which is perceived as divine law)."
Your hypothesis is demonstratively wrong, and no amount of your bloviating will change that.
It is best to read and study and observe all information that flows through and then form an informed opinion. Opinions are all that we can muster because we only see those facts that we already believe in.
We reject those that don’t fit with our world view. Facts themselves are not stable, they change as new facts emerge. Nobody owns the truth.
What Golden points out about why the Vatican was not bombed but the pentagon and WTC if religion was the cause is a valid point. I had never though of that before, very few people have. While pointing a finger dont ignore the ones that point to us, to the US. That is how one can find a semblance of truth.
And while pointing to Islam dont forget the Muslims who also died and who were also among those who helped in rescuing the victims, taxi drivers who gave free rides to get people home from the disaster area.
It is best to read and study and observe all information that flows through and then form an informed opinion. Opinions are all that we can muster because we only see those facts that we already believe in.
We reject those that don’t fit with our world view. Facts themselves are not stable, they change as new facts emerge. Nobody owns the truth.
What Golden points out about why the Vatican was not bombed but the pentagon and WTC if religion was the cause is a valid point. I had never though of that before, very few people have. While pointing a finger dont ignore the ones that point to us, to the US. That is how one can find a semblance of truth.
And while pointing to Islam dont forget the Muslims who also died and who were also among those who helped in rescuing the victims, taxi drivers who gave free rides to get people home from the disaster area.
It's not all about proving "the other guy" wrong. I don't try to prove that Buddhism is right and christianity is wrong. That's not my purpose here at all. My purpose is to get people to stay in their own religious lane (at least outside of this forum, and in the real world).
It's not going to be a big victory. That's not what we're looking for, because we know better. It's the kind of thing where someone says -- or simply thinks to themselves -- 'hmmm. I never thought about 'it' that way before. I'll have to think about that'. There have been times on this site where that has happened to me. I hope most others are open-minded enough not to necessarily change their mind about what they believe, but to think about the beliefs of others. To not always thing, 'I have to have my own way all the time'.
Good for you Phet!
Keep the faith, because I've seen lots of people express that sort of "hmmm" moment and change their way of thinking to suggest that maybe it is a big victory! Lots of people responding positively to a well made argument regardless their bias and pre-established way of thinking. Regardless their religion, beliefs in god or not...
Right! Any victory along those lines is about as rare as seeing a shooting star on a rainy night. Back to the mud slinging!
The reason the terrorists flew planes into buildings has its basis on religion, and the perceived insults to it.
From Wikipedia:
"Al-Qaeda members believe a Christian–Jewish alliance (led by the United States) is conspiring to be at war against Islam and destroy Islam. As Salafist jihadists, members of al-Qaeda believe that killing non-combatants is religiously sanctioned. Al-Qaeda also opposes what it regards as man-made laws, and wants to replace them exclusively with a strict form of sharīʿa (Islamic religious law which is perceived as divine law)."
Your hypothesis is demonstratively wrong, and no amount of your bloviating will change that.
First...I will start by noting that I am a U.S. Military Veteran: Electronic Warfare Signals Intelligence Analyst, 522 Military Intelligence Battalion, 2ND Armored Division, United States Army.
You left out WHY would they believe, "a Christian–Jewish alliance (led by the United States) is conspiring to be at war against Islam and destroy Islam".
It's because the U.S. went to their part of the world and waged war against them...based on our disagreement with the way they conduct their Theologically based culture...that's why.
The strike here was a RETALIATORY military mission.
They hit the Pentagon and the buildings that trade the financial instruments that support the corporations of the Military Industrial Complex that design and build the armaments & weapons and provide the financial backing for the military OFFENSIVE that the U.S. waged against them.
In war...you win some battles, and you lose some. Each side is usually able to successfully accomplish missions and incursions against the other.
For decades (especially the 10 years starting with the Gulf War) it was the U.S. going there and raining down destruction on them.
9/11/2001 was the most successful of the few counter-attacks they were able to stage with their limited resources.
That's how it goes in war.
And no amount of dishonest and hateful propaganda to claim that it was a unprovoked Religious based terrorist attack against non-combatants, will change that.
It is common in war to strike non-combatants. The U.S. nuked two cities (and was about to nuke a third) while prosecuting a war...the only country to use nuclear weapons against a foe. How many killed in those cities were "combatants"?
Last edited by GldnRule; 08-02-2022 at 09:15 AM..
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Denial appears to run deep in your family.
