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I tend to agree with you, since I think we all feel a simple apology is not enough when it comes to addressing past wrongs, but an apology or admission of wrong doing is the first step and all too often a step not taken by all too many leaders who are responsible for these kinds of atrocities. For people like Pope Francis, this is a true challenge, because want as he does to make things right, there really is no correcting the past. There is no way to make things right all considered, and there is no amount of reparation that is enough.
When it comes to the Catholic church and all past wrongs Pope Francis might like to compensate for, it would take more wealth than the Catholic church owns, and as we all know, that's a whole lot of wealth. They're not going to liquidate all those assets, cathedrals, churches, land, for the sake of what happened yesterday. Religion is about promoting a way forward, survival, especially for the religion.
Why do you think those empowered to do bad, as evidenced by your observation, will turn around to do good? That is your belief, because there is no evidence for that.
How do you know that is my belief when I did not mention anyone turning round to do good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Unlike you, they think what they do IS good. That is their belief.
What they think and what their religion tells them are two different things. I am talking about the latter, not the former.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Past performance is not a guarantee for future performance as my financial institution reminds me. Same holds for history. No guarantee.
Yet you use this method of predicting future events every day of your life because it usually works. Do you believe religion will disappear?
Most of the dead people I've talked to feel like they've been left behind...
Ha.
Last dead person I talked to was my mother. She died in March of 2020. Some months later, I mentioned to a friend with whom I share some woo that I had not had any dreams or anything that could be construed as messages from my mom, and I really missed her.
Friend said, "Before you go to sleep, tell your mother out loud that you miss her and would like to hear from her and know that she is OK."
So I did.
I woke up about an hour later from a dream in which my mother was standing in her living room, looking as she did in maybe her 40s or 50s, and she was in my face looking very annoyed. She said, "Why are you trying to talk to me? Get on with doing what you are supposed to be doing." Then she turned and disappeared up the stairs that led to the second floor of the house.
Are you new here? I have forgotten. There was a former member who claimed to be an atheist, but mostly only argued with atheists.
Like Harry, it would appear you argue/scold any atheist who has a different perspective than you re: you determine their ‘claim’ of atheism as not real if we aren’t angry or don’t agree with you relative to the real world. It’s hilariously outrageous considering you call theists closed-minded.
I think you have to get your head out of the forum-mentality and recognize there are many of us who logically realize a fight against religion/those who believe in it, per the thread, does not promote atheism in a positive light - particularly relative to our professional lives and the real world. Can you imagine if people were to speak this way on the street, in court or a boardroom? It’s ineffective i.e. one would be perceived as an angry narcissist (or a lunatic) not to respect or understand the other person has their rights/opinion relative to their religion, too, no matter how illogical it is. Hence my point I manage to have many friendly/professional relationships with theists. That said, as you would say - you do you.
We can successfully accomplish much more, as atheists, if we understand the logic behind (and fight for) our rights vs. (angrily) infringing upon the rights of others.
Whether it's indigenous peoples or blacks in the US, or whatever, it's obviously true that the dead cannot be made whole. Heck, even living survivors cannot really be made whole.
Reparations aren't about that. They recognize that descendants share in the negative impacts, that there are structural issues to be repaired, and make some efforts in that direction. It is part of the "reconciliation" in "truth and reconciliation".
I understand that I did not, personally, cause harms to slaves, for example. Nor did my father, or my grandfather. Possibly not even my ancestors living pre-emancipation, probably, as they were all denizens of the north. But I recognize the terrible legacy and would be glad to see some important symbolic and concrete restitution, even if it means my tax contributions will go, in part, to that.
Like Harry, it would appear you argue/scold any atheist who has a different perspective than you re: you determine their ‘claim’ of atheism as not real if we aren’t angry or don’t agree with you relative to the real world. It’s hilariously outrageous considering you call theists closed-minded.
I think you have to get your head out of the forum-mentality and recognize there are many of us who logically realize a fight against religion/those who believe in it, per the thread, does not promote atheism in a positive light - particularly relative to our professional lives and the real world. Can you imagine if people were to speak this way on the street, in court or a boardroom? It’s ineffective i.e. one would be perceived as an angry narcissist (or a lunatic) not to respect or understand the other person has their rights/opinion relative to their religion, too, no matter how illogical it is. Hence my point I manage to have many friendly/professional relationships with theists. That said, as you would say - you do you.
We can successfully accomplish much more, as atheists, if we understand the logic behind (and fight for) our rights vs. (angrily) infringing upon the rights of others.
Whether it's indigenous peoples or blacks in the US, or whatever, it's obviously true that the dead cannot be made whole. Heck, even living survivors cannot really be made whole.
Reparations aren't about that. They recognize that descendants share in the negative impacts, that there are structural issues to be repaired, and make some efforts in that direction. It is part of the "reconciliation" in "truth and reconciliation".
I understand that I did not, personally, cause harms to slaves, for example. Nor did my father, or my grandfather. Possibly not even my ancestors living pre-emancipation, probably, as they were all denizens of the north. But I recognize the terrible legacy and would be glad to see some important symbolic and concrete restitution, even if it means my tax contributions will go, in part, to that.
I don't think you've really read my comments.
I'm not saying that reparations are a bad idea. They are good for the culture that was/is abused.
I'm saying reparations do nothing for the original victims.
Like Harry, it would appear you argue/scold any atheist who has a different perspective than you re: you determine their ‘claim’ of atheism as not real if we aren’t angry or don’t agree with you relative to the real world. It’s hilariously outrageous considering you call theists closed-minded.
I did not scold you, I simply disagreed with you and explained why I posted here. Nowhere have i called you not a real atheist, and it is hilariously outrageous how hurt you feel because someone does not agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
I think you have to get your head out of the forum-mentality and recognize there are many of us who logically realize a fight against religion/those who believe in it, per the thread, does not promote atheism in a positive light - particularly relative to our professional lives and the real world. Can you imagine if people were to speak this way on the street, in court or a boardroom?
It would be no different. We are not using a different logic, science or mathematics here on the internet than we would on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
It’s ineffective i.e. one would be perceived as an angry narcissist (or a lunatic) not to respect or understand the other person has their rights/opinion relative to their religion, too, no matter how illogical it is. Hence my point I manage to have many friendly/professional relationships with theists. That said, as you would say - you do you.
And I have often said they have the right to believe what they want to, but when they post bad arguments on the internet, we have the right to refute them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
We can successfully accomplish much more, as atheists, if we understand the logic behind (and fight for) our rights vs. (angrily) infringing upon the rights of others.
Then stop (angrily) infringing upon our rights to post science, history, logic and mathematics that some religious people get offended by.
Religious forums? Seems like a waste of time and electrons. Why post on a forum of which is devoted to a subject of which holds no relevance to one. I don’t knit or fly airplanes. I don’t visit knitting or airplane forums. So why all the none-spiritual people on this forum? Uncertain about one’s belief system? Perhaps.
If I’ve asked this question before, forgive me. I am simply perplexed.
Last dead person I talked to was my mother. She died in March of 2020. Some months later, I mentioned to a friend with whom I share some woo that I had not had any dreams or anything that could be construed as messages from my mom, and I really missed her.
Friend said, "Before you go to sleep, tell your mother out loud that you miss her and would like to hear from her and know that she is OK."
So I did.
I woke up about an hour later from a dream in which my mother was standing in her living room, looking as she did in maybe her 40s or 50s, and she was in my face looking very annoyed. She said, "Why are you trying to talk to me? Get on with doing what you are supposed to be doing." Then she turned and disappeared up the stairs that led to the second floor of the house.
OK, Ma. Won't bother you again! Damn.
Damn is right but as usual it's a good idea to listen to dear old mom...
I never make any kind of effort to have any kind of dream before I fall asleep, but I have vivid dreams every night. I've had more dreams with my parents than I could count. Both with my father who died years ago and my mother who is now 92. Still often to this day. Some are nice. Some not so nice. Most are really weird. Never too sure what to make of any of them, but I've never been one to think they are coming from anywhere other than in my head.
If I were to believe all my dreams were coming from some outside source, I'd probably be cowered in a corner somewhere or in a mental institution.
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