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That still does not help the person who suffered and died.
We're talking about two separate things. There is a difference between making amends to a culture, and then there is making amends to the individual, and you can't to the latter.
Culture is people, no people no culture. Culture arises from what the people of the community believe, value, celebrate, practice, build, pray. How do you apologize or make amends to culture? Give me an example.
Reparation is not about compensating the dead. Why not make amends to the community whose people were harmed?
Many of the survivors are younger than most posters here, the last Residental School ended during your Clinton presidency. The names of some of the government officals responsible are beingberased from the naming of institutions and somedemand to remove the name of Sir John A himself, imagine the remivam of all refetences to George Washington in your country. And it was not just native children, the Christian Brothers from Mnt Cashel abusers were transferred to Vancouver and molstef boys until well into the Obama term. With the approval of the Catholic Church. And a reminder to my American friends the Catholic Church is muh larger and more powerful relatively speaking in Canada than in the States and the Evangelical Church much weaker.
Unless the Popes visit is followed through with action and funds it will be preceived as window dressing but it has acheived much in addressing the issue in thepublic eye that I do not think the Church can slude back without a large backlash from rhe Canadian public including the Catholics themselves. And hopefully our current PM, a Catholic himself, keeps pressure on them.
By the Canadian Constitution some provinces including my own have to fund Catholic school systems but fortunately they are run in the exact same way as public schools are. In fact in St Albert the public school system in the Cathklic schools and the separate school system is the public school system.
All true. But why is reparations not a way towards reconciliation? You are not answering that question. It is not just an apology, it is putting his money where his mouth is. Those who committed the ‘sin’ are also dead. Why cant the organization that organized the “sin” not pay reparation? What do YOU think would by ethical justice?
What do you think about the 4.5 mil Alex Jones is being made to pay to the Sandy Hook parents? Is that not reparation? Their children are still dead, and Jones was only being a creep making money off their grief with his broadcast, not even the shooter. Should he or not pay?
Ah, so it's about money.
But you keep my point because you tend to be an 'either/or' thinking. So I'll repeat it one more time. There is a difference between making reparations to a culture and making reparations to the immediate victim.
And I'll give you a non-religious example. Students in my school are in PE class playing field hockey. One girl had a hissy fit because her PE class team was losing and threw her field hockey stick. It hit a girl in the mouth, broke off her two front, top teeth at the gum line, which then required dental surgery. Did the girl say "I'm sorry"? Yes, to the principal who was about to suspend her. No, to the girl she injured. Did she change her general behavior? No, that was her general pattern of behavior before and continued to be her general pattern behavior afterwards. "I'm sorry" often has no real, practical value.
So let's take the Pope's move -- which I do give him some credit for. Is he now going to similarly apologize to every indigenous culture where the church did immoral things throughout history? Or was this a show apology because it became big news in Canada? Is he going to strip Junipero Serra of sainthood for his actions in Alta California? Is he going to go on a similar apology tour to Latin and South America where other atrocities were committed by Catholics during the conquest of those areas?
How do you see religion, and its power, lead for good? Where is the evidence?
The evidence is it's power to do bad, because people are influenced by religion. And if it can be abused to make people do bad things, it can be used to make people not do bad things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Is it obvious to atheists that religion will never go away? Is that a belief?
Some atheists have noted this, including myself, but I can not speak for all atheists. It is a belief based on the observation that religion has existed for thousands of years, and that it is still not going away in today's interconnected world.
Thank you for the link on how the Pope is important to Catholics and how significant the number of Catholics is. Much appreciated. What is important to Catholics and the Pope’s connection to Jesus is News? Really? Odd coming from an Atheist.
I still believe it is a Christian matter and the Pope should be making some serious reparations. THAT would be news to me.
What is important to Catholics and the Pope's connection to Jesus is not the news or the reason the Pope's visit to Canada is in the news...
Culture is people, no people no culture. Culture arises from what the people of the community believe, value, celebrate, practice, build, pray. How do you apologize or make amends to culture? Give me an example.
Reparation is not about compensating the dead. Why not make amends to the community whose people were harmed?
There are thousands if maybe tens of thousands of victims still alive. This is nit something thay ended long ago. I was already middle aged by the time the lsst school closed. And from the past survivors keft chikdren and grandchildren.
It were the culture,language and religon that were deliberatly destroyed. You make amnends by acknowleding that it was a great culture(s) and provide funds fod the teaching of these cultures to those that were directly or indirectly denind. But most of all you reach out to the First Nations people and ask them how you can help them? It is not immpossible. And it is desireable.
And include the mention of the abuse and losted opportunities in sermins so members of the Church can bettee appreciate what was done wrongly. And stop stealing the funds you claimed to put aside to assist but spent building more churches for non natives.
But you keep my point because you tend to be an 'either/or' thinking. So I'll repeat it one more time. There is a difference between making reparations to a culture and making reparations to the immediate victim.
And I'll give you a non-religious example. Students in my school are in PE class playing field hockey. One girl had a hissy fit because her PE class team was losing and threw her field hockey stick. It hit a girl in the mouth, broke off her two front, top teeth at the gum line, which then required dental surgery. Did the girl say "I'm sorry"? Yes, to the principal who was about to suspend her. No, to the girl she injured. Did she change her general behavior? No, that was her general pattern of behavior before and continued to be her general pattern behavior afterwards. "I'm sorry" often has no real, practical value.
So let's take the Pope's move -- which I do give him some credit for. Is he now going to similarly apologize to every indigenous culture where the church did immoral things throughout history? Or was this a show apology because it became big news in Canada? Is he going to strip Junipero Serra of sainthood for his actions in Alta California? Is he going to go on a similar apology tour to Latin and South America where other atrocities were committed by Catholics during the conquest of those areas?
Of course it is about money. Money solves a lot of problems and it hurts to give. If that is meaningful to the community whose children were abused and “assimilated”, a genocide as the Pope described, then yes it is meaningful. That also is the only respectful response to the community and its culture.
So do you not believe in reparation because it is “about the money?l And you also do not think sorry is enough, and the PM of Canada agrees with you. He wants more from the pope, and i think he will agree money for the community would be a meaningful apology.
So if not money, what would be enough in your estimation to pay for the genocide?
Never in my life--and I know I've been in churches more than you have--have I experienced anything like that, even in the very conservative Reformed Church of my childhood. I am sure it might go on, particularly in the conservative South, but that's a pretty unfair assumption to make built upon the fact I brought up that the great majority of churches are struggling to pay those electric and heating bills.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I seem to recall a comment or two of yours about how you were turned off by what you were hearing at a past church or two you used to attend. Either way, not all churches are as active when it comes to what you have never experienced, but I didn't make any of this up. Anyone interested can Google for where, when and how often the intermingling of religion and politics goes on as previously described. The transparency of where those tithings go is another matter however. Not at all as easy to determine generally speaking.
There are thousands if maybe tens of thousands of victims still alive. This is nit something thay ended long ago. I was already middle aged by the time the lsst school closed. And from the past survivors keft chikdren and grandchildren.
It were the culture,language and religon that were deliberatly destroyed. You make amnends by acknowleding that it was a great culture(s) and provide funds fod the teaching of these cultures to those that were directly or indirectly denind. But most of all you reach out to the First Nations people and ask them how you can help them? It is not immpossible. And it is desireable.
And include the mention of the abuse and losted opportunities in sermins so members of the Church can bettee appreciate what was done wrongly. And stop stealing the funds you claimed to put aside to assist but spent building more churches for non natives.
I understand what is considered news. I am only expressing my opinion that I do not consider a religious leader visiting is news, because it is a non-event that does not effect change in any way to the world. Sports actually does, effect change and breaks new ground. It matters. The Lionesses, enough said. News has become indistinguishable from entertainment, delivered with a lot of shouting, "breaking news" all the time. I much prefer to read, even day old newspaper or news magazines, slowly, in my own "Other Voice" voice in the head. Just my opinion, you are free to disagree.
Jon Stewart, whom I love and respect, has a great show on media and how it sells news. Worth watching. That of course has noting to do with the Pope's visit. Anyway we are off topic.
Needless to say, what is or is not news and why is not dependent on your opinion, and your opinion doesn't very well reflect a good understanding of what makes for meaningful news to others. Lots of people feel the way you do, however. I've got a very good long-time friend who doesn't like following the news either, or at all. He would rather just live his life in the peaceful "bubble" he prefers to limit himself to. Again all a matter of our personal differences, perspectives and preferences along these lines.
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